What do you believe?

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Callan S.

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« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2013, 08:01:18 am »
it's odd.  you traded it, but you shouldn't have.  it was not yours, really, to trade away.
What's interesting is how you think it's yours - until you impune it. Then the truth of the matter is you didn't own it?

Why leave the impression of owning?

It's a bit like giving a present to someone, until they do something with it you don't like, then saying you never gave it to them. Just to the person who would have done with it exactly as you would have done. It's very prima donna-ish - like in table top roleplay where one player tries to tell another player what their PC would do.

Royce

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« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2013, 09:21:01 am »
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Is anyone prepared to wonder if that type of thinking, which is post christianity through and through, isn't functioning as a kind of denial mechanism that tries and FAILS to abate a massive depression and exhaustion with the futility and sad symbolic rules of the game we're all currently playing with each other?

Do you mean members of the Western empire? Or are humans globally fighting to abate depression everywhere?

Just going to throw something out there, and please arrest me in regards of numbers, they might be wrong.

Maybe the futility many people feel, comes from a mass confusion. We can`t just dismiss that for 99% of our existence as homo sapiens, we have been hunter-gatherers. The civilized/modern man is a brand new concept, and we have suddenly removed ourselves completely from hunting and gathering. Instead we buy everything. Maybe this phase of transition is what causes this massive confusion of meaning and lack there of.

We have existed for 250000 years as homo sapiens, and for a couple of hundred years of those, we have been civilized and modern. That is a blink of an eye in regards to how long we have been primitive beings. To me it is not weird that we have trouble coping with how fast we are changing our way of life.

Callan S.

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« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2013, 08:02:30 am »
Instead we buy everything. Maybe this phase of transition is what causes this massive confusion of meaning and lack there of.
Pure rubbish! Now I'm off to buy a video game where I go into a dungeon, slay beasts and bring back treasure!

Royce

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« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2013, 09:38:20 am »
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Pure rubbish! Now I'm off to buy a video game where I go into a dungeon, slay beasts and bring back treasure!

Lol.

Royce

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« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2013, 09:41:22 pm »
A river comes to the desert and says "Oh my, how am I going to cross that desert?" The sky says, "it is easy. You just wait a while
and bit by bit your molecules drift up to the sky and they become clouds. Then they will travel over the desert and on the other side
they will come down and form another river". The river said, "I do not think I like that. I do not want to stop being a river. How do I
know I will get to be a river again once I get up there and get to be a cloud?" I will be something entirely different and it frightens
me. I do not want to go through that". The desert says, "does not matter whether you like it or not, that is what is going to happen.

Callan S.

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« Reply #80 on: December 16, 2013, 05:35:04 am »
A man watches a river and a desert talking. He swears off the drugs!

Royce

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« Reply #81 on: December 16, 2013, 09:47:26 am »
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A man watches a river and a desert talking. He swears off the drugs!

Lol, it is a old sufi story, so drugs may be involved yes.

Wic

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« Reply #82 on: December 24, 2013, 06:38:28 am »
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A man watches a river and a desert talking. He swears off the drugs!

Lol, it is a old sufi story, so drugs may be involved yes.
I think that story touches the heart of how I feel about any afterlife sort of explanation, where something of the self survives.  This idea that the self is a singular, indivisible unit and that 'you' might ascend to some other plane looks like fuckin' insanity if you see this image of unity as one of the many illusions the brain foists upon itself.  If you're angry one moment and calm a day later, is one of those selves any more accurate a representation of you than the other?  If the calm you is more accurate, where did that anger go, and why did it seem like 'you' in the moment?  I don't see 'me' as anything other than a composite.

So...which part ascends?  And how is it still 'me', if it sloughs off all those other, observably neurological bits?  Hell, memory seems pretty solidly physical from our explorations, and we all know how the nonmen turn out when they forget...

Even if there's some vaguely-defined electromagnetic field ejected from my meatship upon death and occasionally reinserted in some newborn meatship, that is surely so alien to what I consider my 'self' as to need a new word entirely to describe it.  It's certainly not the me I'm familiar with.

EDIT: also reminds me of the idea that the same man can't wade through the same river twice, as it's a different man and different river.  Is that zen?  Buddhist?  Native american?  Does this darkness come before matter, if truth shines?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 06:41:07 am by Wic »

Royce

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« Reply #83 on: December 26, 2013, 10:50:21 pm »
Well said Wic :)

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EDIT: also reminds me of the idea that the same man can't wade through the same river twice, as it's a different man and different river.  Is that zen?  Buddhist?  Native american?  Does this darkness come before matter, if truth shines?

It is all of those combined, also known as Wicism?:)

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2017, 03:23:32 pm »
I believe that there is a God, in a very trivial and general sense. And free will is trivially false.

Life (capital L) as we know it is basically a system that works towards two things: increased complexity (intelligence) and decreased chaos (entropy).
Entropy will always increase for an isolated system.
In that sense, life is not ontologically different from the rest of matter. Free energy goes in, the system consumes to maintain a steady state, heat comes out.
What is special about is that we are configurations of matter aware of ourselves and the universe. I would love to live long enough to see how it all ends.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2017, 09:54:58 pm »
Evolution didn't make you, Hershey - you're too cute!

Remember to brush before bed

Wilshire

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« Reply #86 on: November 14, 2017, 04:57:56 pm »
I forgot to answer the question: What do you believe?
No gods. No demons. Just people who think they are.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #87 on: November 14, 2017, 05:51:47 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
I forgot to answer the question: What do you believe?
No gods. No demons. Just people who think they are.

You and I have talked a little about our disdain for religion. But, I do believe in a higher being or what have you. I think Karma is an actual thing. In fact, I preach it to my kids. Example - my daughter said or did something wrong to me, can remember exactly what and when she turned around and went in the kitchen, turned the corner, she fell flat on her face. I laughed and said that's what Karma is all about.  Then tried explaining it to her, who is only 7 and my son (5). Now, Isaiah thinks that when you do something bad, you'll fall on the kitchen floor...lol.

I just can't stand organized religion when they try and push it in your face. I hate it. I will be ignorant and rude to the Jehovah's Witness who shows up on my porch and tells me I'm going to he'll if I don't follow their religion.

Its basically this. I'd call myself a Christian, because that's what I was raised. I am deeply torn when it comes to what I believe in that book and what I don't. But, I know that Jesus, if he was even real or what have you, laid out a lot of ways to lead a good life. Simple things. Treat everyone the same, help out each other and so on. I just wanna be the best human being I can be, and I admit, its tough sometimes.

My daughter and son go to church every Sunday with their Grandma. She is hugely devote, and it has rubbed off more on my daughter than son. But, I have no problem with it. To each his own, I say. Just don't come knocking on my door telling me how to live my life.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #88 on: November 14, 2017, 06:49:19 pm »
I forgot to answer the question: What do you believe?
No gods. No demons. Just people who think they are.

Pretty sure my son falls in the latter category ( i.e. he thinks he's a demon )
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #89 on: November 14, 2017, 07:25:04 pm »
When I was in college, I answered the door naked once when JW showed up knocking. The mother slapped her hand on her daughter's eyes, her daughter was trying to squirm out of her hold exclaiming, "let me see, let me see!". I wouldn't do that now, of course.

In my current incarnation, I'm what you would call a liberal christian ( to overly generalize for ease of conversation ) - which is a christian who doesn't believe people go to hell just because they aren't Christians. A quick run down of the 3 basic categories ( again, overly simplifying for conversation - there are over 1600 denominations around the world, all full of texture, depth and identity ). Fundamentalists place going to church as or more important than the bible. Evangelicals put the bible ( as written word, verbatim best they can ) above going to church. Both F and E typically believe you have to "accept" Christ to be saved ( again, some texture - some believe Jews are exceptions, etc ). Liberal Christians believe it's not important to be a bible scholar to enter heaven ( a criticism of the Evangelicals ), but anyone who "walks" the life of Christ is saved ( or at least values/aims for that walk, nobody is perfect ). When Jesus says the only way to the father is through him ( bp ), we take that to mean living his life/living a "good" life, not requiring one to "accept him as lord and savior". We view the ( to use Bakker language ) endless disputation on the meaning of passages of the bible, the infighting among Christians on the "specifics" to be a waste of time and worse leading down the wrong path, driving away others. So Liberal Christians agree with the major tenets of the bible and try to shirk off the self-inflicted wounds of traditional Christendom ( hypocrisy, cafeteria sin tolerance, license for bad behavior ) ... so those really badly behaving people out there that claim they're saved giving them the green light to do whatever they like ... liberal Christians have news for them, they're not. Atheists can be saved to our point of view ( questioning God's existence gives God a ping of pride, to our way of thinking ). If you can follow just the one ( hardest ) directive of Christ, to love your enemies, the rest all falls into place and you need not read more on how to live from the bible or anything else. Of course, it can be a lot of fun to do so, but not required if you can actually love your enemies. The "proselytizing" we do is to walk that walk among others, lead by example - spread "good" if you will, not try to "turn" anyone.

Your position on religion is understandable - religion is run by massive numbers of humans, all fraught with error and evil. Bit of advice, don't let your sour view on religion deprive you of some cool stuff. Like reading the rich texts from various "gurus" for example. The mistake ( some ) evangelicals make is to disregard the amazing reads out there which dispute or criticize religion with some even "avoiding"  science, which is sad to miss out on so much humanity. Atheists can make the same mistake in the other direction - some of the spiritual history and texts are wild, fun stuff to read. Religious history is the history of humanity - to avoid/disregard them is to miss out on some seriously cool history and exposure to wild-ass intellectuals.
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