[Madness]

You got the quote fine, Ishammael.

Lol - by the way, there are Cishaurim threads, you knobs.

But yes, I've thought about Meppa being a Consult Psukhari . He could be the little boy at the end of TTT.

LMAO! Yes, I have it. The Consult used the little boy at the end of TTT and Moenghus the Elder's Notebook of World Domination and attempted to reverse engineer their alien craft into the ultimate Cishaurim!

[Cüréthañ]

I rather doubt the Consult could make head nor tail of the Psukhe with their truncated emotional spectrum.  They are completely ignorant of empathy.

[Wilshire]

I rather doubt the Consult could make head nor tail of the Psukhe with their truncated emotional spectrum.  They are completely ignorant of empathy.

Not so sure. Its been some time since I have read Kellhus encounter with the glamor-consult-esmi thing, but emotion seems to be a primary motivator for them. Or, at least, the the worldly sensations of pleasure and pain. I think they could make a psukari if they had a template of some kind to work off of.

Which, by extention (and to keep with the theme of the thread), may mean that Kellhus could possibly be able to engineer a psukari given his father's failures. Has anyone yet guessed that Meppa was placed by Kellhus? Well I have now. Mark it down.

[Cüréthañ]

Yep, Meppa is a mind-wiped Iyokus, clearly.  How to escape the damnation of the Daimos?  Remove all experiential memories. =D

As I said - the Consult are emotionally truncated.  They have eliminated the ability to empathize.  Sure, they can graft the ability to 'see' the onta but they can't feel it.

[Somnambulist]

I would tend to agree generally that the Consult has no facility for the Psukhe.  While the implication during PON is that the Consult want the Cishaurim destroyed because (through Moenghus) they can see the skin spies, it could also be for the fact they can't utilize the Psukhe.  Whatever they can't control or pervert, they will try to destroy.  That could also go all the way back to Titirga, and Shaeonanra's belief that his early blindness was partially responsible for the power he commanded.  All reaching speculation, granted, but there could be something in it.

[Madness]

I rather doubt the Consult could make head nor tail of the Psukhe with their truncated emotional spectrum.  They are completely ignorant of empathy.

Not so sure. Its been some time since I have read Kellhus encounter with the glamor-consult-esmi thing, but emotion seems to be a primary motivator for them. Or, at least, the the worldly sensations of pleasure and pain. I think they could make a psukari if they had a template of some kind to work off of.

Which, by extention (and to keep with the theme of the thread), may mean that Kellhus could possibly be able to engineer a psukari given his father's failures. Has anyone yet guessed that Meppa was placed by Kellhus? Well I have now. Mark it down.

Noted.

[Wilshire]

Yep, Meppa is a mind-wiped Iyokus, clearly.  How to escape the damnation of the Daimos?  Remove all experiential memories. =D

You might have been joking but I like it.

[Cüréthañ]

Not joking, but not entirely serious.  I think it is a valid possibility.

[Triskele]

Wilshire - Any theories on why Kellhus would be behind Meppa?  That's the hangup for me.  I don't know what the goal would be.

We don't have a ton of evidence, but wouldn't the Cishaurim be feared and hated in the New Empire?

[Madness]

I've suggested that Kellhus has control of one of the Cults partaking in rebellion. Say, Gilgaol. But Meppa is fun to think of too.

[Triskele]

I did just randomly find one little tidbit.  When Esmenet is trying to rally the Empire to fight Fanayal, there's a mention that the rumors of the return of the Cishaurim has inspired the remaining Schoolmen.  Not sure if that tells us anything about whether or not Kellhus is playing a part.

[Wilshire]

Wilshire - Any theories on why Kellhus would be behind Meppa?  That's the hangup for me.  I don't know what the goal would be.

We don't have a ton of evidence, but wouldn't the Cishaurim be feared and hated in the New Empire?

Well my personal favorite crackpot is that Meppa is Moenghus' doing, but since you asked lets see...

Why would Kellhus be behind Meppa?
Kellhus obviously knew, or knew there was a good chance, that the empire was going to fall when he left. He took pretty much every able bodied man to the North, leaving a huge power vacuum. He was never able to catch Fanyal, so he was likely so swoop in when the powers that be were all elsewhere. We know that Kellhus can erase memories via the Whelming, maybe he doesn't so much erase them, but covers them up so that they are inaccessible to their owner.

So given all of that, Kellhus knew that Fanyal would leap at the opportunity to have a powerful ally - especially one that was a symbol of his peoples' former glory. Kellhus figured out how to teach the water-baring technique to one of his blind disciples (or blinded one of them and then taught them, whatever). He then erased this person's memories, and sent them off to find his enemies.
After Meppa, almost single-handily, takes over the empire, Kellhus can come back and give him his memories back (or maybe some trigger was placed in his mind so that once something specific happens his memories flood back). At the end of the day, only the face of the ruler changed,. Fanayal will be ousted as the face of destruction, but Meppa will be spared since he was basically under Kellhus' orders.


Uh so why go through all this? Kellhus couldn't find or stop the bandit for whatever reason. Maybe he wants him to take over his empire while he is away. Could be that he wanted to know if he was being helped by one of the Hundred, so he couldn't send a regular spy. He needed someone who looked like an enemy to the Aspect-Emperor, even to 'divine' scrutiny. What better person then the last scion of a cult he personally destroyed? To all the world and the Outside Meppa looks normal, but to Kellhus he is simply another set of 'eyes'.
Also, Kellhus is pretty sure he killed all the Cish, but how sure is he? Meppa could be a beacon for any wayward Psukari, and once they are all gathered, they can all be destroyed.


...
Any questions? lol.

[mrganondorf]

@ Dunyain novice - I love the idea of Kellhus making something like the Barricades!  Maybe the Great Ordeal would have to be stationary for it to work (otherwise, why not already do it).  I can see this coming in handy at Daugliash with the whole, unified army surrounded for miles and miles.  Maybe Kellhus is waiting for some kind of tipping point when the sranc mass around the Great Ordeal will reach a max level and he can wipe them all out with a single cant?

Also, I had never thought about the Psukhe being undesirable because of the ability to yank a soul out.  Don't know why I missed that, but I note the Ciphrang flee the stronger Cishaurim who maybe have some defense against that specific attack?

@ Somnambulist - Love the idea that Maitha was a hidden or former Cishaurim!  If it's possible at all, Moe could have figured out how to successfully do what Xinemus tries to do with Iyokus eyes.  Implication: Moe and Maitha are still out there!

@ Wilshire - I think that Moe has some kind of still to be revealed uber plan because he could have executed everything Kellhus did without Kellhus.  He doesn't need water, he controls people who do.  People were so quickly enslaved by Kellhus persona, Moe would have been able to dominate *everyone* in the Cishaurim and execute the Great Ordeal without any other Dunyains.  This would have preserved the purity of Ishual too.  It just seems unlikely that any Dunyain wouldn't be able to postulate the tipping point when an agent could dominate the holy war, and beyond the tipping point.

Meppa placed by Kellhus?  AWESOME!!!!!

@ Ishammael - I like the idea that the Consult are behind the attack on the SS, but it seems odd that they haven't kept up the attack over the years.  Perhaps too costly?  Otherwise, they could have killed tons of sorcerers before the holy war.

@ locke - Love your commentary on the Kel/Moe conversation!

@ Madness - what you said is cool

I've suggested that Kellhus has control of one of the Cults partaking in rebellion. Say, Gilgaol. But Meppa is fun to think of too.

[mrganondorf]

About Kellhus very first cant--had assumed it was just a 'practice run' that you could say/think a certain phrase to negate the cant from taking effect, so you could practice any cant without actually inflicting it on the world (otherwise Atyersus would be pretty scorched from people learning war cants).  What if Kellhus actually called someone?  Another Dunyain to signal that he was finally gaining sorcery?  Maybe his dad (if their conversation in TTT was meant to fool a watcher)?

Kellhus Vs No-God going to be as simple as cracking the earth under the carapace?  Surely not!  Just occured to me since it seems like a persistent weakness for sorcerers.  Wonder what Kellhus will do to avoid it?

[EkyannusIII]

I've suggested that Kellhus has control of one of the Cults partaking in rebellion. Say, Gilgaol.

That's very plausible, the High Cultist of Gilgaol is a hereditary position, hence the leader of the cult is a sort of clerical aristocrat in his own right; and Gilgaol is mentioned as being very popular with Earwan nobility, for obvious reasons.  It seems unlikely that such a prestigious office would go unintegrated into the structure of the Kellian empire in the same way that being village shaman for Yatwer might.