Seswatha's heart

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Borque

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« on: November 18, 2013, 10:42:49 pm »
I don't know if there already is a topic for this. Tried some searching but couldn't find any. That might just be me being inept though.

I'm sure there is something weird with it. We know (from the TUC Ch 1 excerpt) that the regular soul binding stuff hasn't been used here. And Achamian never really thinks a lot about it, it's almost like he is avoiding to think about it.

Also, in the light of that the Mandate don't worship the spaces between the Gods, could it be that this would stop Seswatha from having an influence? I got the beginnings of a crackpot theory here, involving the Mandate - possibly on some subconscious level - needing to in effect worship Seswatha for getting access to his dreams.

Crtha

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« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2013, 10:49:49 pm »
Totes man.  Seswatha as a mini-god, pulling strings from the outside.
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Madness

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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2013, 02:11:49 am »
I don't know if there already is a topic for this. Tried some searching but couldn't find any. That might just be me being inept though.

I will continue looking but I think you are safe. Here are some threads that tread the similar ground though, since you are interested:

Kellhus & Seswatha
The Circuit of Seswatha and Achamian
Seswatha's Elju(s)
The Nau-Cayuti Dreams
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
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Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2013, 05:05:12 pm »
If The Hundred are actually just uberciphrang, then I think its possible for a Human/Nonman/Other to become like them. "Like them" meaning able to carve out some kind of niche within the outside, where their subjective influence becomes objective morality. From their, the most powerful of "Gods" exert so much subjective influence that they are able to moderately change the objective reality of Earwa.

I'm basically saying I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that someone like Seswatha, who presumably had a lot of follower during his lifetime, was able to somehow overcome death and become a "God" of his own. I also think that there is a good chance that schoolmen are uniquely situated to this end, since they know a thing or two are force reality to bend to their whim.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2013, 06:12:51 pm »
Ciphrang (according to an interview) were never mortal or entities of the World.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 06:18:35 pm »
Ciphrang (according to an interview) were never mortal or entities of the World.
Annnnd?
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2013, 06:21:26 pm »
If The Hundred are actually just uberciphrang, then I think its possible for a Human/Nonman/Other to become like them.

Makes your then statement unlikely.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2013, 06:29:54 pm »
Sigh, you and your clarification problems. Actually it was just a dumb if/then statement but whatever.

I meant more that if the Hundred are more power ciphrang, then on some level everything that exists in the outside might themselves be able to become a god-like figure, if all it takes is enough "power" to bend reality around yourself and create your own sphere of influence. Since a ciphrang becomes a god by having power, then so too could a soul, once it exists fully in the outside (upon the death of its host body).
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2013, 06:32:42 pm »
I only found the 'then' part of the 'if/then' unlikely. Your premise didn't seem entirely flawed ;).

But I accept your new statement as plausible 8).
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Borque

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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2013, 09:08:14 am »
And to crack my pot even further:

Seswatha was desperate and made a deal with a fairly major Outside Agency (God/Ciphrang). In return for letting Ses hang around the Outside, broadcasting dreams and whatnot, Ses has promised said Agency a steady inflow of scrumptious souls. These souls are committed to the Agency by the Grasping ritual, and the Daimiotic artifact that is Seswatha's heart.

ETA: added clarity
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 02:09:43 pm by Borque »

Madness

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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 01:03:21 pm »
In these instances my questions always become the same:

We've had versions of this discussion elsewhere. My burning questions then change subtly. For instance, is Seswatha still an intact entity somehow? lockesnow, I believe, suggested that Seswatha used the Heart and the Dreams to achieve something resembling Shauriatas' immortality from TUC Ch. 1 Excerpt. If Seswatha still exists as his own agent, how much volition and agency does he have?

(This reflects Kellhus talking to the Seswatha homunculus.)
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Borque

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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2013, 02:21:24 pm »
Well yes, with my crackpottery, Seswatha would still be around and have agency. But Outside, which of course means he is not necessarily on the same time axis as Erwa. Which could help in some ways and hinder in other.

Cracking on: How do the Na-Cayuti dreams fit into this? Well, an Outside Seswatha could have taken care of Na's soul (and thereby memories) when he died. Of course, we don't even know if Na's soul ever passed into the Outside. But the Zemi ancestor worship belief system supports ancestors having some agency on the Outside, could definitely be the case here.

Wilshire

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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2013, 04:47:59 pm »
But the Zemi ancestor worship belief system supports ancestors having some agency on the Outside, could definitely be the case here.
This is a good point.

Madness, what do you mean by homunculus?
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2013, 08:36:58 pm »
In philosophy the idea of the homunculus (a little person) is supposed to be shorthand to represent the self inside the body. So 'subjective you' is actually a little person inside the skull of your body/machine. It leads to one of the original infinite regression problems in philosophy because every homunculus then necessitates its own homunculus.

The Mandate have a Seswatha homunculus (which I think was how Bakker once phrased it back on ZTS).

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locke

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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2013, 11:49:58 pm »
Quote
Following a fleet survey of the Theses, Achamian moved on to the Persemiota, the meaning-fixing meditative techniques that Mandate Schoolmen, thanks to the Seswathan homunculus within them, largely ignored. Then he delved into the technical depths of the Semansis Dualis, the very doorstep of what had been, until the coming of the man who sat before him, a final precursor to damnation.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Thousandfold Thought: The Prince of Nothing, Book Three (Kindle Locations 3019-3022). Overlook TP. Kindle Edition.