Japanese get Bakker.

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jamesA01

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« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2013, 12:40:24 pm »
I'm being somewhat sarcastic and acting like a shocked prude. We can probably all agree that porn is not one of humanities greatest achievements, whatever the particulars of the cultural psychology it exhibits.

While we're on the subject I wonder if anyone else thinks the same as me - it seems like to a certain extent we've gone from a state of
ignorant puritanism to a kind of mass hedonism, so today instead of being ridiculously over the top of the evils of sex and masturbation, we are ridiculously intolerant of anything that ISN'T hedonistic?

I was reading Freud recently and noticed a short passage where he says that a patient might very simply quell their recurring neurosis if they would stop masturbating. No professional would be allowed to give such advice these days without being censured. In fact if you look at people asking for advice on google, they're always encouraged to do it and told its perfectly healthy, like they need warned off the idea that pleasure isn't the highest goal in life. You're allowed not to do it but only as part of the narrative of personal choice, only if that's what makes you feel better.

I definitely see myself as a kind of reactionary against this tendency. I don't want to go the other way and become a total puritan, but I think today our societies are hedonistic almost to the point of totalitarianism. It really is an unconscionable sin to make a stand against it. The present is a lot more Brave New World rather than 1984.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 12:49:14 pm by jamesA01 »

Madness

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« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2013, 02:07:13 pm »
The vicious humiliation of women.

If this misogynist theme bothers you about American porn, you'd probably have a heart attack from Japanese porn.


Lol. +1.

I'm being somewhat sarcastic and acting like a shocked prude. We can probably all agree that porn is not one of humanities greatest achievements, whatever the particulars of the cultural psychology it exhibits.

Well, it certainly seems to suggest that a bunch of us will never reproduce.

While we're on the subject I wonder if anyone else thinks the same as me - it seems like to a certain extent we've gone from a state of
ignorant puritanism to a kind of mass hedonism, so today instead of being ridiculously over the top of the evils of sex and masturbation, we are ridiculously intolerant of anything that ISN'T hedonistic?

Just thinking aloud but wouldn't mass hedonism correlate with the prevalence of popularly disseminated conceptions like atheism, nihilism, materialism, etc?

I was reading Freud recently and noticed a short passage where he says that a patient might very simply quell their recurring neurosis if they would stop masturbating. No professional would be allowed to give such advice these days without being censured.

To be perfectly honest though, there are plenty of professionals giving advice (or worse prescribing things or perpetuating erroneous research paradigms) under the guise of following the "censuring constraints" today and we'll always look back on monuments like Freud (and be so looked back upon) because he's an example of how we can find ourselves so far astray in our hypotheses while still adhering to the "science" of the day (and largely because we haven't taken the time to destroy his hypotheses, specifically, with modern data) (Freud is also still popularly mentioned in academic philosophy).

I definitely see myself as a kind of reactionary against this tendency. I don't want to go the other way and become a total puritan, but I think today our societies are hedonistic almost to the point of totalitarianism. It really is an unconscionable sin to make a stand against it. The present is a lot more Brave New World rather than 1984.

Lol - how dare you dictate the pleasure I take out of the world? I work hard for my remote, my 100g of bandwidth for simulcasting all my favorite porn on four different screens, and my truckload of KY.

Jeez.

Seriously, though, I'm not sure I care to dictate others either, however, the argument can be made that porn diminishes our social agency (among other things) because it effective mediates a certain number of participants from civil unrest ;).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 02:09:15 pm by Madness »
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jamesA01

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« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2013, 02:49:46 pm »
I've met so many examples of the "how dare you TAKE AWAY MY PLEASURE by not fanatically approving of it and showing proper deference at all times, don't you know this is actively oppressing me and destroying my individuality!?!?" attitude.

Freedom to do - ok, but what about freedom from? Freedom from addiction and disease? Only if you chose this as part of your
individual narrative of pleasure and positivity. That seems to be the message today. It's probably responsible for a whole other kind of misery than "if you masturbate you'll go blind and if you take drugs you'll go gay and kill your parents" was.

Nice point about porn making us infertile. I guess there's probably an unconscious desire to erase sex itself through pushing it beyond healthy limits? Like that Louis CK joke about eating your way from obesity back to skinniness.


Madness

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« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2013, 03:42:56 pm »
Freedom to do - ok, but what about freedom from? Freedom from addiction and disease? Only if you chose this as part of your
individual narrative of pleasure and positivity. That seems to be the message today.

"If you don't partake, you don't receive the benefits of society" type messages?

Nice point about porn making us infertile. I guess there's probably an unconscious desire to erase sex itself through pushing it beyond healthy limits? Like that Louis CK joke about eating your way from obesity back to skinniness.

Lol, you took that to it's extreme conclusion (still coherent) but I meant that in the sense that those of us who literally "don't go out on Friday" (or whenever), don't get laid. The more time you spend milkin' them roots, the less time you spend actually propagating the genes (though, this leads to what you took as my point).
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Phallus Pendulus

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« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2013, 03:14:31 am »
JamesA01, I agree with you 100%.

Us post-modern First World people basically live in Huxley's Brave New World (harm/care morality, ironing out human differences, pleasure as the only good). 

One sign that Huxley describes our present world so much more than Orwell is the way people usually see "Orwellian" oppression around them so much more easily than they see the signs of Huxley's dystopia. People still recognize Orwellisms everywhere - Right and Left (these days, significantly, it's probably more the Right, but both sides think they see Orwell in their enemy) speak all the time of doublethink and crimethink, the term "Orwellian" in general to describe self-censoring speech. They call out Ministry of Truth style propaganda, endless surveillance, regular two minutes of hate, having always been at war with Eurasia, etc.

But nowhere nearly as often are people able to identify Huxleyisms around them. Like fish unable to identify the water.

(Huxley is both more relevant and less recognized, because the typical modern liberal's response to Brave New World would basically be "What's wrong with it? What's wrong with everyone being sated and content all the time?")

I meant that in the sense that those of us who literally "don't go out on Friday" (or whenever), don't get laid. The more time you spend milkin' them roots, the less time you spend actually propagating the genes (though, this leads to what you took as my point).

From an evolutionary viewpoint, what matters is producing offspring. Getting laid on every weekend, unless it results in reproduction, is about as genetically successful as jerking off. (That is, not at all.)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 03:19:00 am by Phallus Pendulus »

Phallus Pendulus

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« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2013, 03:21:47 am »
I've met so many examples of the "how dare you TAKE AWAY MY PLEASURE by not fanatically approving of it and showing proper deference at all times, don't you know this is actively oppressing me and destroying my individuality!?!?" attitude.

Yes, the "DONT U DARE JUDGE ME, DAD!!!11" morality is pretty much the new norm in the post-modern West.

The idea that anything should be tolerated, and that only things which harm the individual's precious feelings are worth worrying about - what Jon Haidt called harm/care morality - is the most trivial moral standard imaginable.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 03:27:28 am by Phallus Pendulus »

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« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2013, 02:44:49 pm »
One sign that Huxley describes our present world so much more than Orwell is the way people usually see "Orwellian" oppression around them so much more easily than they see the signs of Huxley's dystopia. People still recognize Orwellisms everywhere - Right and Left (these days, significantly, it's probably more the Right, but both sides think they see Orwell in their enemy) speak all the time of doublethink and crimethink, the term "Orwellian" in general to describe self-censoring speech. They call out Ministry of Truth style propaganda, endless surveillance, regular two minutes of hate, having always been at war with Eurasia, etc.

1984 is definitely the more disseminated text of the two (though, weirdly enough Huxley was circulated among my teenage peers far earlier than Orwell). Brave New World, Island, Doors of Perception, Heaven and Hell, and The Perennial Philosophy... Good times.

Also, I think Huxley is the more challenging of the two and Orwell enjoyed a more contemporary issue (whereas Huxley predicted something that happened after 1984 long before it occurred).

(Huxley is both more relevant and less recognized, because the typical modern liberal's response to Brave New World would basically be "What's wrong with it? What's wrong with everyone being sated and content all the time?")

This. +1.

I meant that in the sense that those of us who literally "don't go out on Friday" (or whenever), don't get laid. The more time you spend milkin' them roots, the less time you spend actually propagating the genes (though, this leads to what you took as my point).

From an evolutionary viewpoint, what matters is producing offspring. Getting laid on every weekend, unless it results in reproduction, is about as genetically successful as jerking off. (That is, not at all.)

Well... the chances of producing offspring are as close as possible to zero in only one of those conditions.

The idea that anything should be tolerated, and that only things which harm the individual's precious feelings are worth worrying about - what Jon Haidt called harm/care morality - is the most trivial moral standard imaginable.

Well said. One of the most trivial, anyhow.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2013, 11:26:39 pm »
You may be interested to note then that in high school, Brave New World was required to be read by every student, while 1984 was not.
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Madness

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« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2013, 11:27:19 am »
Lol... your high school maybe ;).

We read some pretty lame stuff at my high school. Though, I remember reading Animal Farm over two periods because it happened to be on the bookshelf next to my desk in grade 10 English while I was supposed to be reading... I don't know, Kill A Mockingbird or some such.

Lmao.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2013, 09:49:01 pm »
Lol... your high school maybe ;).

We read some pretty lame stuff at my high school. Though, I remember reading Animal Farm over two periods because it happened to be on the bookshelf next to my desk in grade 10 English while I was supposed to be reading... I don't know, Kill A Mockingbird or some such.

Lmao.
Yeah I read most of 1984 during my German final exam in high school, because it was sitting under the desk of the kid in front of me. Didn't do so well on the exam though.
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Callan S.

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« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2013, 09:04:08 am »
What the hell is it with Japan and their sex culture? I mean I'm genuinely curious, I'm not trying to sound like an ignorant Puritan American by any means, because I'm extremely open-minded sexually. I don't think it's "wrong", I'm just curious why it seems like sex -- especially some REALLY fucking niche sex interests -- seem so casual and pervasive in Japanese culture as opposed to pretty much the entire world? And this is coming from someone who's pretty familiar with, at least, the history of Japan, going back to about 1,000 A.D. or so (I love Japanese culture, really, and their history fascinates me more than almost any other nation, but even so, this kind of shit still baffles me). There must be legitimate theories as to why their culture is like this in modern times?
It reminds me of the catholic school girl phenomena - so sexually represed that when it comes out, it comes out under high pressure and shoots way over various boundaries. And geez, even my analogy sounds dirty...
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 09:33:15 am by Callan S. »

Callan S.

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« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2013, 09:10:55 am »
The vicious humiliation of women.

If this misogynist theme bothers you about American porn, you'd probably have a heart attack from Japanese porn.
*cries*

Callan S.

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« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2013, 09:17:07 am »
I'm being somewhat sarcastic and acting like a shocked prude. We can probably all agree that porn is not one of humanities greatest achievements, whatever the particulars of the cultural psychology it exhibits.

While we're on the subject I wonder if anyone else thinks the same as me - it seems like to a certain extent we've gone from a state of
ignorant puritanism to a kind of mass hedonism, so today instead of being ridiculously over the top of the evils of sex and masturbation, we are ridiculously intolerant of anything that ISN'T hedonistic?

I was reading Freud recently and noticed a short passage where he says that a patient might very simply quell their recurring neurosis if they would stop masturbating. No professional would be allowed to give such advice these days without being censured. In fact if you look at people asking for advice on google, they're always encouraged to do it and told its perfectly healthy, like they need warned off the idea that pleasure isn't the highest goal in life. You're allowed not to do it but only as part of the narrative of personal choice, only if that's what makes you feel better.

I definitely see myself as a kind of reactionary against this tendency. I don't want to go the other way and become a total puritan, but I think today our societies are hedonistic almost to the point of totalitarianism. It really is an unconscionable sin to make a stand against it. The present is a lot more Brave New World rather than 1984.
The stand seems as much an extremism. I mean, by what metric do we measure how exactly far you want to go against this? Might be ten feet, might be ten miles (so to speak), who knows?

Indeed often such stands seem to be a push for a blank cheque 'How much are you saying this should stop' 'Well, that depends on how I feel at any given moment'. How much is asked for? Nobody knows.

Duskweaver

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« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2013, 10:40:48 am »
Strange that those who most wish to control others often feel that they themselves are so oppressed...
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

jamesA01

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« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2013, 04:53:40 pm »
I'm being somewhat sarcastic and acting like a shocked prude. We can probably all agree that porn is not one of humanities greatest achievements, whatever the particulars of the cultural psychology it exhibits.

While we're on the subject I wonder if anyone else thinks the same as me - it seems like to a certain extent we've gone from a state of
ignorant puritanism to a kind of mass hedonism, so today instead of being ridiculously over the top of the evils of sex and masturbation, we are ridiculously intolerant of anything that ISN'T hedonistic?

I was reading Freud recently and noticed a short passage where he says that a patient might very simply quell their recurring neurosis if they would stop masturbating. No professional would be allowed to give such advice these days without being censured. In fact if you look at people asking for advice on google, they're always encouraged to do it and told its perfectly healthy, like they need warned off the idea that pleasure isn't the highest goal in life. You're allowed not to do it but only as part of the narrative of personal choice, only if that's what makes you feel better.

I definitely see myself as a kind of reactionary against this tendency. I don't want to go the other way and become a total puritan, but I think today our societies are hedonistic almost to the point of totalitarianism. It really is an unconscionable sin to make a stand against it. The present is a lot more Brave New World rather than 1984.
The stand seems as much an extremism. I mean, by what metric do we measure how exactly far you want to go against this? Might be ten feet, might be ten miles (so to speak), who knows?

Indeed often such stands seem to be a push for a blank cheque 'How much are you saying this should stop' 'Well, that depends on how I feel at any given moment'. How much is asked for? Nobody knows.

I'm not trying to enforce anything. I'd just like to a see a discourse in culture that offers people a way out. Loneliness + increased pressure to float into sickness and ruin through aggressive hedonism seems - at least to my dumb analysis - to be one of the biggest traps facing people today.