Dunyain Weakness

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mrganondorf

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« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2014, 01:59:30 am »
Well it's obvious the Dunyain have weaknesses, they are still humans.

From the start Khellus has been proven wrong and made mistakes. Do you remember Leweth the trapper with his dogs ? How Khellus described him as lost in his superstitions, seeing the mystic everywhere ? How pathetic the guy seemed....

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For Leweth, Kellhus knew, the world was fraught with gods, ghosts, even demons. It was steeped in their conspiracies, crowded with omens and portents of their capricious humours. Like a second horizon, their designs encompassed the struggles of men—shrouded, cruel, and in the end, always fatal.

And now after Khellus has travelled the world and lived outside the Dunyain's refuge, he has accepted a lot of what he thought was myths and superstitions, he's become much like what he despised in the 1st world born he met. Let's face it if there is one glaring weakness in Khellus and probably the Dunyain as a whole, it is arrogance... Being smarter doesn't mean being wiser or more knowledgeable.

One thing that surprises me is how the Dunyain are described as a sect seeking enlightment, and exiling themselves willingly from the world. But then there's the whole training about face reading... For me that's a tool for manipulation and control, I can't accept that's it's needed for suppressing your own emotions. So the Dunyain may have exiled themselves but they are definitely not above world matters.

Hinting at the founder's designs?

Uncle Holy

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« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2015, 12:51:03 am »
I disagree...for them to successfully stop 'feeling', they must be able to distinguish feelings they see on each other's faces...a bit like you cant write anything meaningful without knowing how to read...Kellhus is fallible definitely...but i'd say his fallibility 'reduced' as he got older and learned more stuff...i believe his TTT took into account the Gods and even the necessary sranc-eating...Did he get deceived by Yatwer? I doubt it...even if Kellhus saw every sign of sincerity on his face, there's no way Sorweel could have turned so quickly and so completely...He anticipated the Gods' interference and thus he would be on the lookout for any weird stuff among the Believer-Kings...

The Sharmat

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« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2015, 10:47:43 am »
We never actually see Kellhus grasp the Thousandfold Thought, or understand what that means. All we see is Kellhus deciding he's grasped it.

SilentRoamer

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« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2015, 11:05:09 am »
Worth remembering if Yatwer is hiding Sorweel it must be more than a face mask...

I mena Kellhus can see elevated pulse responses, perspiration responses and can HEAR heartbeats increasing.

Godly intervention in this case means just that, a complete rewrite of Sorweels local reality frame.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2015, 11:37:16 am »
Apparently a more subtle imposition than when she handed him the chorae, though. That one had dramatic effects. Apparently even a God can only force the objective frame of the world so far.

Wilshire

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« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2015, 01:55:31 pm »
I disagree...for them to successfully stop 'feeling', they must be able to distinguish feelings they see on each other's faces...a bit like you cant write anything meaningful without knowing how to read...Kellhus is fallible definitely...but i'd say his fallibility 'reduced' as he got older and learned more stuff...i believe his TTT took into account the Gods and even the necessary sranc-eating...Did he get deceived by Yatwer? I doubt it...even if Kellhus saw every sign of sincerity on his face, there's no way Sorweel could have turned so quickly and so completely...He anticipated the Gods' interference and thus he would be on the lookout for any weird stuff among the Believer-Kings...
I agree with pretty much all of that, expect that framing it as "kellhus' TTT" might not be technically correct, but does establish the spirit of what you are saying. Just as TS pointed out:
We never actually see Kellhus grasp the Thousandfold Thought, or understand what that means. All we see is Kellhus deciding he's grasped it.
To me, TTT is just a different way of describing a deep delving into the probability trance, but this definition is hardly the most accepted one. Whatever you want to call it though, what you have described seems to be plausible.

Also, we know that not only Kellhus can see that something is wrong (or at least 'not right') with Sorweel, but also his children, who are only half-dunyain. If Serwe has a mini breakdown trying to discern his true feelings in TUC, then I am 100% sure Kellhus knows something is wrong and is/will be re-formatting his plan to take him into account.

Does Kellhus know the Gods will vie against him? Absolutely. Once he knew that the Gods were actually real he must have come to that conclusion. That doesn't mean he knows exactly how, who, where, or when they will try to interfere, it doesn't mean he knew that Sorweel would become an agent of Yatwer or any other god, and it certainly doesn't mean that he has plans in place to counter every move they might make. What it does mean is that when something like Sorweel shows up, he won't go into ultra-panic mode and shut down.

If nothing else, Kellhus has an acute mastery of the probability trance and has spent decades planning this war. Therefore he has a spectacular ability to plan moves far in advance and will have many contingency plans in cast events don't go the way he originally hoped. The trouble with the probability trance is that its a function of... probabilities. Think back to Moenghus, who had some 30 years to plan. Ostensibly, he failed to consider that Kellhus would come to him "mad"/"broken" from the journey, and it cost him his life. Maybe that was a sure bet, 1 million to 1 odds that Kellhus would break, or maybe it was 50/50, doesn't matter. When something so fundamental goes wrong early on and is not discovered until late in the game, all your planning is for naught.

This is certainly a huge weakness when coupled with the fact that Kellhus is really bad at noticing his own faults/errors/shortcomings, which leaves an opening if things don't go the way he has meticulously planned.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2015, 08:35:48 pm »
I didn't interpret Serwa as having a mini-breakdown because she couldn't tell what Sorweel was feeling. Rather, she had a breakdown because all her senses were telling her he was feeling something that made no sense for him to feel. A subtle but important distinction.

Wilshire

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« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2015, 08:48:49 pm »
I didn't interpret Serwa as having a mini-breakdown because she couldn't tell what Sorweel was feeling. Rather, she had a breakdown because all her senses were telling her he was feeling something that made no sense for him to feel. A subtle but important distinction.
I guess thats what I meant. The sensory outputs from Sorweel lent to an emotional/physical state the did not match up with what a Dunyain would predict him to be feeling based on the recent events of his life, especially considering the way that they knew he was feeling in the weeks/days before his 'masking'. There should not, could not, have been the change that they all now see.

I agree that it wasn't that she couldn't tell what he was feeling, because it was what he was apparently feeling that did not make sense.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2015, 08:51:22 pm »
It's cool seeing Dunyain freak out like a human being when their greatest tool turns out to be unreliable. Even if it is just a half-dunyain.

Of course half-dunyain vary a lot. Serwa so far seems more "human" than Kayutas, for example.

Wilshire

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« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2015, 12:33:09 pm »
Yeah she seems to be the most "human" and/or "balanced", kind of like Maithanet, probably because Kellhus spent the most time carefully attending to his one offspring that would become a schoolman.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2015, 03:04:14 pm »
Some of the stuff from Esmi's perspective makes it sound like Serwe was largely raised by the Swayali rather than her or Kellhus, and that Serwa was more human from the very start. She's not objective though, so who knows.

Kellhus seems to have spent some time crafting Kayutas but Esmenet never had any difficulty seeing his inhumanity. He does not experience love. Serwa, allegedly, did.

themerchant

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« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2015, 06:30:23 am »
I don't think the half-dunyain differ that much, Inri says as much to uncle holy, talking about how he dons the persona of a more human Kellhus for Esme. People would be appalled how humanity is a coat they don because that's what moves humans.

Whatever showing of humanity is just cause it is expedient. I have my doubts that Thelli is a stuttering cringer as well. why else would Bakker put references into Little Kel's point of view where he feels Thelli is watching him. (i believe when esme is taking her afternoon sun and they discuss the Maithanet problem).

or they could all be as they seem, or something inbetween lol

The Sharmat

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« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2015, 07:46:47 am »
Kelmomas and Samarmas  at least differ from most of their siblings, save maybe Inrilatas. Maithanet is fairly different from most of Kellhus' children as well. I don't have difficulty believing they can vary in what they inherit.

Serwa seems to have some genuine affection for Moenghus II. Yeah, everything all of them do could be part of some deeper unknowable game that we're incapable of seeing, sure. But that's absolutely useless to speculate about. Because we, by definition, cannot know it until it's shown in the books.

Uncle Holy

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« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2015, 08:36:50 pm »
It's cool seeing Dunyain freak out like a human being when their greatest tool turns out to be unreliable. Even if it is just a half-dunyain.

Of course half-dunyain vary a lot. Serwa so far seems more "human" than Kayutas, for example.
I think it's all a matter of who's got the most training...None of them got the full Dunyain training like Maithanet (or at least as much as a half-dunyain can take)...
Kellhus definitely spent time with Kayutas, shaping him, so he's a bit like Maitha...
Serwa went to the Swayali when she was very young so all she's got is her native inherited abilities with very little training and this gives her some measure of humanity...
Well it's obvious the Dunyain have weaknesses, they are still humans.

From the start Khellus has been proven wrong and made mistakes. Do you remember Leweth the trapper with his dogs ? How Khellus described him as lost in his superstitions, seeing the mystic everywhere ? How pathetic the guy seemed....

Quote
For Leweth, Kellhus knew, the world was fraught with gods, ghosts, even demons. It was steeped in their conspiracies, crowded with omens and portents of their capricious humours. Like a second horizon, their designs encompassed the struggles of men—shrouded, cruel, and in the end, always fatal.

And now after Khellus has travelled the world and lived outside the Dunyain's refuge, he has accepted a lot of what he thought was myths and superstitions, he's become much like what he despised in the 1st world born he met. Let's face it if there is one glaring weakness in Khellus and probably the Dunyain as a whole, it is arrogance... Being smarter doesn't mean being wiser or more knowledgeable.

One thing that surprises me is how the Dunyain are described as a sect seeking enlightment, and exiling themselves willingly from the world. But then there's the whole training about face reading... For me that's a tool for manipulation and control, I can't accept that's it's needed for suppressing your own emotions. So the Dunyain may have exiled themselves but they are definitely not above world matters.



I dont think the Dunyain are arrogant...The fact that Kellhus always seems to be in control may give the illusion of arrogance, but i believe we've established that the Dunyain arent big on humanity...He's simply in control. When he realizes he's made a mistake, he adjusts...
Quote
Grunting, the barbarian redoubled his fury. Kellhus parted a hammering rain of blows, feigning desperation. He reached out and clamped Cnaiür’s right wrist, yanked him forward. Somehow, impossibly, Cnaiür managed to bring his free hand up, seemingly through Kellhus’s sword arm. He pound his palm into Kellhus’s face.
Kellhus fell backward, kicking Cnaiür twice in the ribs. He rolled into a handstand, effortlessly vaulted back into stance.
He tasted his own blood. How?
The Scylvendi stumbled, clutching his side.
He’d misjudged the man’s reflexes, Kellhus realized, as he had so many other things.
The fact that he discounted everything Leweth said is just as a result of his training...his foundation is reason or the Logos...there aint no sorcery and gods in the Logos, so he had no reason to believe Leweth (who was so childish in his eyes)...as soon as he discovered sorcery was real, he began planning ways to learn it...arrogance implies pride and the ability to feel shame and i definitely wouldnt call kellhus proud...
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"The whisper warns you!" Inrilatas laughed, his eyes bright, not for the twin flames they reflected, but something more incendiary still: apprehension. "You do not like sharing... Such a peevish, devious little soul! Come closer, little brother."
He sees me!
"You cannot let him fool you!" the boy cried, trying to goad a pride that did not exist.

The most allowance i'll give is that since Kellhus is still not the Logos incarnate, he'll still have traces of these feelings, but only traces. If the Dunyain possess any weakness, its one that all humans share...
Quote
It was all the young Prince-Imperial could do to simply stand and breathe. All his crimes, he had committed in the shadow of assumption. Were his Uncle to suspect him capable—of murdering Samarmas, Sharacinth—he would have quickly seen his guilt, such were his gifts. But for all their strength, the Dûnyain remained as blind to ignorance as the world-born—and as vulnerable.

Wilshire

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« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2015, 02:22:45 pm »
It's cool seeing Dunyain freak out like a human being when their greatest tool turns out to be unreliable. Even if it is just a half-dunyain.

Of course half-dunyain vary a lot. Serwa so far seems more "human" than Kayutas, for example.
I think it's all a matter of who's got the most training...None of them got the full Dunyain training like Maithanet (or at least as much as a half-dunyain can take)...
Kellhus definitely spent time with Kayutas, shaping him, so he's a bit like Maitha...
Serwa went to the Swayali when she was very young so all she's got is her native inherited abilities with very little training and this gives her some measure of humanity...


I think we have seen what non-training leads to. Kelmomas, Samaras, Inrilatas, Thelopia. There is no way that Serwe just happened to be more human than the rest. I think Kellhus spent much time and effort developing the entire school from nothing. He had to personally train every witch until there were enough to carry on the task. He built that school to be entirely independant from every other one, and wouldn't have risk their influence in having them teach his students. Kellhus must have been deeply involved with Serwa's upbringing, both in the school and in the various dunyain trainings that now make her appear sane.
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