Deciding Research

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Wilshire

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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2013, 12:21:52 am »

I agree - however, the manifestation of 'New Energy' is going to spawn another Industrial Revolution-type ripple when it occurs. Also, is this a strictly necessary avenue of research if Germany, as a country, might remove themselves from the grid as early as 2025?
Uh how does a whole [industrialized] country go "off the grid"? What does that even mean :P? That all homes and businesses with generate their own energy and not share it with anyone? Seems like a terrible idea. Even if there is enough sunlight, wind, water, and algae for them to do it, which I doubt, why do away with the grid system?

Remember in our thought experience, we're not restricted by the usual bureaucratic and academic infighting - so decades could be brought under ten years if the research was attacked obsessively from as many possible angles.

Problem Response: An free-energy world is also a post-economic world, I think. Otherwise, unlimited energy won't be free.
I doubt it. It would take at least another decade of testing at ITER to even see if its feasable. Then there needs to be a few more decades to build a facility and work out the kinks. 30 years at least, total, without any money issues.

Also, I meant that the cost to produce unlimited energy is essentially 0. It could be sold, at profit, for pennies per gigawatt.
Mobility Vehicles: What other modes of transportation are available to serve the same purpose as cars (whether that means alternative fuels, Musk's Hyperloop, or anything in between)?
Never thought about it...
As I wrote, the much more critical issue when considering our use of crude fuels. Not a lot of people realize this; all our tacky, crap plastic filling landfills are the human transmutation of the majestic, awesome fossilized bones of that which has came before (especially dinosaurs :().

What am I going to do without cheap crap?

This feeds into the idea of planned obsolescence, which I think we should ignore for the purposes of this conversation. Let's assume that alternatives can be made-to-last and environmentally resistant.
Come now, don't marginalize plastic. Pretty much everything is made out of plastic, from cars to medical prosthesis.
On research into how we don't lack the solution to a bunch of current problems, instead it's just that various minute demographics simply choose to deny the already present solutions to various other peoples. And how those other peoples treat it as if it's a condition of nature (ie, unchangeable) rather than the choice of other men.


... not a big mystery. Money. Who is going to spend money to save people without it?
Money isn't a part of physics. That it is, however, is how the minute demographic presents the world to us.

Curious how refering to money is a way of crying poverty in terms of taking actions/choices.

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Or I guess we could chase after new, more sexy problems...for some reason...
Why should we stop forward progress? Like you said, we already have the solutions to plenty of issues, sitting back and patting ourselves on the back isn't going to get us anywhere.
Imaginary research money into how people can end up treating ONE method of progress (if I dare risk legitimizing it by also calling it that) as if that is the ONLY forward progress there ever is and ever was possible.

I honestly didn't understand any of that or I would have tried to respond. Could you 'splaine  it to me?

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Royce

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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2013, 08:25:22 am »
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What if it's just not that good, compared to other sources of production? Even if it's the patrolling/costs of patrolling of any crops that would make it less efficient than other sources of production?

Yes, it would be great to figure these issues out, by actually trying it out on a grand scale. If it turns out you are right, we have all learned something.

I do think Madness touches on the main problem here, namely politics. There are so many different industries that would not welcome the competition hemp would bring to the table. Most likely these various industries have certain politicians in their pockets. The reasons they "fear" the plant are many.

It would be great to figure out if hemp is valuable to us or not. We do not figure that out by ignoring its potential.

Madness

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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 11:23:43 am »
Uh how does a whole [industrialized] country go "off the grid"? What does that even mean :P? That all homes and businesses with generate their own energy and not share it with anyone? Seems like a terrible idea. Even if there is enough sunlight, wind, water, and algae for them to do it, which I doubt, why do away with the grid system?

Lol - as far as I recall, they are already producing nearly 20% of their country's energy from renewables like the bold. Solar and wind are the big two, obviously. Their government's plan seems to be to provide free energy nationally and export the excess at a cost.

Apparently, it's just a matter of taking the time and space ;).

Remember in our thought experience, we're not restricted by the usual bureaucratic and academic infighting - so decades could be brought under ten years if the research was attacked obsessively from as many possible angles.

Problem Response: An free-energy world is also a post-economic world, I think. Otherwise, unlimited energy won't be free.

I doubt it. It would take at least another decade of testing at ITER to even see if its feasable. Then there needs to be a few more decades to build a facility and work out the kinks. 30 years at least, total, without any money issues.

Also, I meant that the cost to produce unlimited energy is essentially 0. It could be sold, at profit, for pennies per gigawatt.

+1 about dollars make cents. And I agree (or suggest), the possessors of such technology would recreate Dynasty by fiat currency.

Dare to dream, baby. If every capable and knowledgeable scientist with relevance (or not) to offer such a project, dropped everything right now to work on this...

Mobility Vehicles: What other modes of transportation are available to serve the same purpose as cars (whether that means alternative fuels, Musk's Hyperloop, or anything in between)?
Never thought about it...

Never inspired by Jetson tubes ;)? (Though, unless pilot's licenses become driver's licenses, I never want to see humans in control of flying cars en masse.)

As I wrote, the much more critical issue when considering our use of crude fuels. Not a lot of people realize this; all our tacky, crap plastic filling landfills are the human transmutation of the majestic, awesome fossilized bones of that which has came before (especially dinosaurs :().

What am I going to do without cheap crap?

This feeds into the idea of planned obsolescence, which I think we should ignore for the purposes of this conversation. Let's assume that alternatives can be made-to-last and environmentally resistant.
Come now, don't marginalize plastic. Pretty much everything is made out of plastic, from cars to medical prosthesis.

Well, it's like Royce said. Hemp is (derivatives are) already one (and only a thing we happen to know about) alternative to oil in transmuting plastic goods.

In fact, I'm not sure why he's skipping round the issue with Callan but the story goes that Oil and Paper were the two major players in the 1937 tax act. And if at least one fine scholar is to be believed (though there is corroboration for this everywhere), cannabis tinctures enjoyed their place historically too, if a much less prevalent one than textile hemp use.

Curious how refering to money is a way of crying poverty in terms of taking actions/choices.

That comment was meant for Wilshire when he told you not to spend your research dollars here. I forgot a quote tag. It's been rectified.

Imaginary research money into how people can end up treating ONE method of progress (if I dare risk legitimizing it by also calling it that) as if that is the ONLY forward progress there ever is and ever was possible.

Yes, what are you saying here?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2013, 10:56:33 pm »
Here is a real downer post, sorry in advance:

20% and 100% are extraordinarily different. The problem with renewable  energy sources is that they aren't very efficient. Solar power isn't very viable in Germany, or at least the efficiency of solar cells is dramatically lower in Germany than, say, Arizona. Efficiency factors.

I also doubt that there is enough land area to place wind farms to generate the needed electricity. Not to mention that covering nearly every square inch of land with solar panels and wind farms would destroy ecosystems just as surely as strip mining for coal.

Next you've got hydro, which either means tidal forces or dams. Its hard to build new dams because, again, it destroys environments. Tidal forces, while interesting, are relatively new and not very reliable.

Not to say I think its a bad idea, just unlikely. Though I've not done the research for Germany, I'm just extrapolating what I know about the US.

Even if they could do it, the other issue with alternative power sources is that they are extremely intermittent. "The Grid" does not actually store any energy. It provides the correct amount of energy all the time without storing the extra. In order to be "off the grid" you would have to find some way to store all the power generated during the day so that it could be utilized during peak hours. Battery technology, to put it gently, sucks. A lot of power would be lost in the storage/release process.


[/rant]
If it where up to me, I'd so go for it. I honestly don't care that much about the environment. It is impossible to fix every problem without consequence. Honestly, with 6 billion people crammed into the world, something has to give. Yes, either we kill off a bunch of people and control the population to a sustainable level, or other species and ecosystems will have to die. If we, humanity, move towards "greener" technology, at least some of what remains will be preserved. If we let every potential solution get bogged down by every other environmental lobbying group, everything will end up dead.
[/end rant]

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Callan S.

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« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2013, 12:36:04 am »
Well, check out who is the big energy user? Business? Because we have a big fetish for expansionism. The systems built around a crazy, continuous market share grab. It's going to suck at using any type of energy (as one speaker said about petrol, it's not that petrol is too expensive - it's that it's been too cheap - we got addicted, man. Time to AA). Go nuclear so you don't have to give up the addiction.

Quote
I honestly didn't understand any of that or I would have tried to respond. Could you 'splaine  it to me?
Can you tell me how far you got before undestanding crashed? 'Money isn't part of physics' is perhaps boring to say, but it's boring because it's so straightforward. Understanding crashed even there? I will extend 'Imaginary research money into' into 'Put imaginary research money into...' just to make the sentence a bit clearer. That would literally be a cognitive science study (and perhaps it's been done already?), why people can so easily refer to 'progress' as if there is only one (which so happy coincides with being their particular notion of progress!)

Callan S.

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« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2013, 12:38:13 am »
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What if it's just not that good, compared to other sources of production? Even if it's the patrolling/costs of patrolling of any crops that would make it less efficient than other sources of production?

Yes, it would be great to figure these issues out, by actually trying it out on a grand scale.
Why a grand scale? Generally a small scale (perhaps a four hectares or so) gives you the numbers needed to work out the larger scale.

I have to say, while I agree with small scale test, I don't agree you have to go large scale or go home. It's not like it's a hadron collider where you have to make the whole thing at once and can't do it piecemeal.

Wilshire

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« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2013, 12:45:57 am »
Agree with you there. In our imaginary research world without politics, I think small scale testing would be reasonable.
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Royce

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« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2013, 09:45:02 am »
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Why a grand scale? Generally a small scale (perhaps a four hectares or so) gives you the numbers needed to work out the larger scale.

Sorry about this. It sounded good in Norwegian, but it came out wrong in English.

What I meant by "grand" was that the plant should be tested in all the aforementioned areas. I did not mean that we should grow mountains of hemp everywhere, and then find out it is useless :)

Madness

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« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2013, 11:34:53 am »
Here is a real downer post, sorry in advance:

Lol - you should probably get on the phone with Germany, Wilshire. They need you ;). Though, battery technology is a great point.

I was wrong about some key points, according to wiki; overall about 12-15% at this point, though some kinds are facilitating up to 30% in their sectors. Also, 80% by 2040.

However, apparently, Germany is the leading country for alternative energy.

But in context, I think that it's probably more about energy politics and setting strong example, neh?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2013, 09:22:59 pm »
Just doing my part. Germany is an extremely environmentally focused country. I know that they are, or at least were for years, the recycling capital of the world. If any country other than they said they where going to be 80% green in 37 years, I'd not believe it.
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Callan S.

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« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2013, 11:35:06 pm »
The power of guilt? Sorry, being a bit cruel *though there's a backhand compliment in that, to a degree!*

Royce

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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2013, 07:12:34 pm »
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The power of guilt? Sorry, being a bit cruel *though there's a backhand compliment in that, to a degree!*

Was that directed towards my misunderstanding? If yes, not much feeling of guilt on my part no :)

Callan S.

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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2013, 03:33:54 am »
No, aimed toward Germany.

Wilshire

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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2013, 04:38:31 pm »
Well, check out who is the big energy user? Business? Because we have a big fetish for expansionism. The systems built around a crazy, continuous market share grab. It's going to suck at using any type of energy (as one speaker said about petrol, it's not that petrol is too expensive - it's that it's been too cheap - we got addicted, man. Time to AA). Go nuclear so you don't have to give up the addiction.

Quote
I honestly didn't understand any of that or I would have tried to respond. Could you 'splaine  it to me?
Can you tell me how far you got before undestanding crashed? 'Money isn't part of physics' is perhaps boring to say, but it's boring because it's so straightforward. Understanding crashed even there? I will extend 'Imaginary research money into' into 'Put imaginary research money into...' just to make the sentence a bit clearer. That would literally be a cognitive science study (and perhaps it's been done already?), why people can so easily refer to 'progress' as if there is only one (which so happy coincides with being their particular notion of progress!)

Sorry totally missed this post. I didn't really understand any of it, but don't feel obligated to go back at this point.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 04:45:18 pm by Wilshire »
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Madness

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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2014, 07:08:31 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, ChaseBeier :).
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