Side Effects of Eating Sranc

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Crtha

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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2013, 11:54:29 pm »
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls. 
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state. 

Evidence:
There is that scene where Sorweel tells the scions that it is fine to do whatever they like to the captured sranc.

Edit*  Callan, I would rather starve to death than eat my own children.  Not a religious thing, more like a biological taboo that.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 11:56:28 pm by Curethan »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2013, 12:04:37 am »
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls. 
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state. 

Evidence:
There is that scene where Sorweel tells the scions that it is fine to do whatever they like to the captured sranc.

Edit*  Callan, I would rather starve to death than eat my own children.  Not a religious thing, more like a biological taboo that.
Thing is, sranc eating would have happened in prior history (well before Kellhus turned up). It's just going to happen, with the various random food shortages on Earwa.

But weve been given no history of it.
Earwa is a superstitious place, probably for good reason. I wouldn't be too surprised if people would rather starve to death rather than eat sranc without someone like Kellhus telling them to do it.
Rather eat ones own children than eat sranc?
Yes. I'd imagine some people are religious enough to starve to death when surrounded by pigs or cows. Why is it a difficult extension to believe that in Earwa sranc are so unholy that death would be preferable?
Though I'm not really sure why you brought that up. I'm sure you can find a story about it on the internet, but I doubt its a widespread thing...


I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls. 
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state. 

Evidence:
There is that scene where Sorweel tells the scions that it is fine to do whatever they like to the captured sranc.

Edit*  Callan, I would rather starve to death than eat my own children.  Not a religious thing, more like a biological taboo that.
I recently starting thinking this same thing. The fact that they don't have souls before they die is probably important. However, I think its possible that the Inchoroi weaved in some bad genetic juju that was originally meant to effect Nonmen if eaten, and by extension could cause some weird things to happen.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Crtha

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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2013, 12:32:34 am »
Boycott G.M. Sranc!  We don't know what it is doing to our bodies!  These things should be labeled, goddamnit!
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Callan S.

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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2013, 05:19:44 am »
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls. 
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state. 

Evidence:
There is that scene where Sorweel tells the scions that it is fine to do whatever they like to the captured sranc.

Edit*  Callan, I would rather starve to death than eat my own children.  Not a religious thing, more like a biological taboo that.
Thing is, sranc eating would have happened in prior history (well before Kellhus turned up). It's just going to happen, with the various random food shortages on Earwa.

But weve been given no history of it.
Earwa is a superstitious place, probably for good reason. I wouldn't be too surprised if people would rather starve to death rather than eat sranc without someone like Kellhus telling them to do it.
Rather eat ones own children than eat sranc?
Yes. I'd imagine some people are religious enough to starve to death when surrounded by pigs or cows. Why is it a difficult extension to believe that in Earwa sranc are so unholy that death would be preferable?
Though I'm not really sure why you brought that up. I'm sure you can find a story about it on the internet, but I doubt its a widespread thing...
Webs got weird shit on it
Quote
Tell people stories about parents eating their children during ancient sieges and they think, What the fuck is wrong with those people? Those people. Not us people. Those.

Madness

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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2013, 02:26:43 pm »
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls. 
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state. 

This is assuming that eating Qirri affects because of ensoulled properties?

I recently starting thinking this same thing. The fact that they don't have souls before they die is probably important. However, I think its possible that the Inchoroi weaved in some bad genetic juju that was originally meant to effect Nonmen if eaten, and by extension could cause some weird things to happen.

This, again, all depends on whether or not the practice of Qirri eating precedes the Fall.

Webs got weird shit on it
Quote
Tell people stories about parents eating their children during ancient sieges and they think, What the fuck is wrong with those people? Those people. Not us people. Those.

Funnily enough, that is the first time I posted on TPB.

Hilar-lar. That person and I are separated by such a chasm of experience.

But Callan, maybe you could have found the instances Bakker is referring to rather than just taking the man at his word. Even Bakker is fallible (I actually don't doubt that people did this, I just prefer evidence). For instance, a cursory internet search shows passages concerning cannibalism and sieges from the Bible, Leningrad, Samaria, etc (I simply searched for "sieges where people ate their children" ...)

I actually happen to agree with Wilshire and you, however. It is highly unlikely that people would eat Sranc but, as you wrote, in the most desperate of situations there must be historical precedent.

EDIT: However, that's never stopped Bakker from omitting that history until "eating Sranc was a taboo for good reasons. Proyas thought back to instances during antique history, where X, X, and X had all succumbed to eating the flesh of their unholy enemy.

And madness came swirling down."

;).
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 02:30:07 pm by Madness »
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Crtha

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« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2013, 12:11:41 am »
This is assuming that eating Qirri affects because of ensoulled properties?

Yep.  Check the difference in 'taste' between CC and NG. 

"The strength that shivers through them has a more melancholy tenor."

All other magic (aside from the Tekne) hinges on the soul, and Qirri seems pretty magical stuff. 
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« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2013, 02:40:53 pm »
If I hadn't done and studied many drugs in my life, I might agree, Curethan. Even still, based on the prevalence of sorcery and the ensoulled, you could be right but I don't think we have enough information to go on and I'm inclined to posit mundane mechanism before metaphysical, in this case.

Personally, I find far too many theories hinge on Chanv being Salt of the Few. I realize Occam's doesn't apply in Earwa (in fact, it seems very much the opposite) but it seems easier, for me, to assume that Earwan drugs operate by mundane mechanism over metaphysical.

For instance, where is the textual evidence that Qirri or Chanv affect a person's soul? I don't think Curethan's aforementioned quote implies anything magical at all but I might be alone here...
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Borric

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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2013, 06:23:45 pm »
Iyokus was addicted to Chanv, the drug that held a greater part of the Ainoni ruling castes within its clasp- except, and this thought often surprised Eleazaras, for Chepheramunni, the latest puppet they had installed on the Ainoni throne.

It seems Skin spies consider it none to healthy.
(Even though it seems to be the norm)



Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2013, 06:47:58 pm »
It seems to me that either the skin-spy didn't partake, didn't have time to get addicted, or was unable to become addicted. If the skin-spy couldn't get addicted, it could be for a number of reason, both physical and mundane or metaphysical. i.e. The consult made the spies immune, or the spies have no souls so they aren't affected.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Crtha

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« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2013, 10:25:07 pm »
Perhaps my impression of 'magical' comes more from qirri's ability to provide actual energy and sustenance.  With mundane drugs, only the illusion of these things can be provided.

Side note: Akka's POV bangs on about how it makes you 'feel' like a nonman (not that he makes that conscious connection), but only Mimara puts that 'empathy' to use.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2013, 11:17:20 pm »
Perhaps my impression of 'magical' comes more from qirri's ability to provide actual energy and sustenance.  With mundane drugs, only the illusion of these things can be provided.

Side note: Akka's POV bangs on about how it makes you 'feel' like a nonman (not that he makes that conscious connection), but only Mimara puts that 'empathy' to use.

I agree with the magical thing. Qirri does not seem, to me, at all like something that can operate on "mundane" physics. I think that whatever it is, it's affecting people's souls.

Here's an idea: Let's assume that qirri is indeed powerful due to the fact that it came from a Nonman, and not a sorceror (though I still lean more towards the latter). Perhaps the only reason the ashes of Nonmen are powerful, and have life-extending properties, is because of whatever the Inchoroi did to the Nonmen to make them immortal in the first place? Perhaps there's some residue of that in their ashes (whatever the hell that is...I suppose we don't know if the Nonmen's immortality was composed purely from the Tekne? I suppose it was early enough in history that the Inchoroi might not have yet unlocked any secrets of the arcane).

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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2013, 11:47:18 pm »
Supposing for a moment that the cadaver's link to a soul is more important that the cadaver's link to sorcery;
Do you think  Kelmomas' spontaneous canabalism might be important to this discussion (he can steal as much food as he needs otherwise)?

Crackpot - Maybe eating Sranc will link the men of the ordeal to the no-god somehow - seeing as Mog how can 'possess' Sranc.
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« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2013, 12:25:50 pm »
Quote
It seems Skin spies consider it none to healthy.
(Even though it seems to be the norm)

It seems to me that either the skin-spy didn't partake, didn't have time to get addicted, or was unable to become addicted. If the skin-spy couldn't get addicted, it could be for a number of reason, both physical and mundane or metaphysical. i.e. The consult made the spies immune, or the spies have no souls so they aren't affected.

Perhaps my impression of 'magical' comes more from qirri's ability to provide actual energy and sustenance.  With mundane drugs, only the illusion of these things can be provided.

Borric's and the bolded is what I'm riffing off.  The skin-spy Bios and the creatures of the Tekne are limited. They are don't have the complex nervous systems we do. They may simply not have the receptors necessary to interact with Qirri or Chanv and so the drugs would be inert. Apparently, Chepherammuni was given the freedom to not do Chanv and they never grilled him on it.

Also, Curethan, real drugs can cause subtle changes in receptor activity in the brain, which do allow beyond an illusion energy and sustenance. But they do so by using up the mortal form faster, neh?

In two simple examples, this involves changing the brain to expect more or less of a certain kind of neurotransmitter at different locations in the brain. In one case, neuronal firing (or inhibition) can move well beyond baseline activity, following which, when you stop introducing regular doses of the exogenous drug (produced outside of the body), comes a crash from the receptor expectation (up/down regulation), when the brain can't meet the demand with its natural production of the same or similar neurotransmitters of the drug. Or drugs can inhibit certain post-synaptic receptor activity, which in so many words would normally communicate to the pre-synaptic terminal to stop sending the neurotransmitter over, and so the brain is tricked into simply using up its surplus of certain neurotransmitters. In both cases, this can also be why it takes more and more of a dosage to the same effect.

Side note: Akka's POV bangs on about how it makes you 'feel' like a nonman (not that he makes that conscious connection), but only Mimara puts that 'empathy' to use.

Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.

Here's an idea: Let's assume that qirri is indeed powerful due to the fact that it came from a Nonman, and not a sorceror (though I still lean more towards the latter). Perhaps the only reason the ashes of Nonmen are powerful, and have life-extending properties, is because of whatever the Inchoroi did to the Nonmen to make them immortal in the first place? Perhaps there's some residue of that in their ashes (whatever the hell that is...I suppose we don't know if the Nonmen's immortality was composed purely from the Tekne? I suppose it was early enough in history that the Inchoroi might not have yet unlocked any secrets of the arcane).

Lol - or is it because of something already in the Nonman Bios? This is what I've been asking all along.

Which again, brings up the question of if the practice of burning Nonmen and eating Qirri precedes the Fall. From my aforementioned quote, a number of posts back, I'd argue because Nil'giccas says they "burn their greatest" that it precedes the Fall... but again, been hoping for answers for awhile.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 12:45:14 pm by Madness »
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Crtha

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« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2013, 02:16:22 am »
Borric's and the bolded is what I'm riffing off.  The skin-spy Bios and the creatures of the Tekne are limited. They are don't have the complex nervous systems we do. They may simply not have the receptors necessary to interact with Qirri or Chanv and so the drugs would be inert. Apparently, Chepherammuni was given the freedom to not do Chanv and they never grilled him on it.
The skinspy tells Mimarra Cleric is killing them and the qirri is part of that.
Also, Curethan, real drugs can cause subtle changes in receptor activity in the brain, which do allow beyond an illusion energy and sustenance. But they do so by using up the mortal form faster, neh?

That is the illusion I'm talking about.  Example; using the qirri at the bottom of the medial screw.  If you are exhausted and wounded to the point where you are falling unconcious like Akka and you take some stimulant which allows you to run up stairs - you are not going to recover from that by having more. 

The skin eaters are surviving for months on a below subsistence diet and qirri whilst pursued by sranc and expending a lot more energy than is feasible.  By comparison, the stone hags (who are denied the qirri) die.  Except Koll, but he isn't human.  Using drugs to sustain superhuman effort whilst starving results in death fairly quickly.

Magic in Earwa produces energy from where-ever.  It's the simplest explanation.  But you know, maybe they are getting it from endless fat reserves or super effective vitamins hidden in ash  ::)

Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.
My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's.  Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul.  But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.

Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head.  The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him.  She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.

Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them.  That's why he forces it on them.

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« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2013, 02:45:50 am »
Borric's and the bolded is what I'm riffing off.  The skin-spy Bios and the creatures of the Tekne are limited. They are don't have the complex nervous systems we do. They may simply not have the receptors necessary to interact with Qirri or Chanv and so the drugs would be inert. Apparently, Chepherammuni was given the freedom to not do Chanv and they never grilled him on it.
The skinspy tells Mimarra Cleric is killing them and the qirri is part of that.
Also, Curethan, real drugs can cause subtle changes in receptor activity in the brain, which do allow beyond an illusion energy and sustenance. But they do so by using up the mortal form faster, neh?

That is the illusion I'm talking about.  Example; using the qirri at the bottom of the medial screw.  If you are exhausted and wounded to the point where you are falling unconcious like Akka and you take some stimulant which allows you to run up stairs - you are not going to recover from that by having more. 

The skin eaters are surviving for months on a below subsistence diet and qirri whilst pursued by sranc and expending a lot more energy than is feasible.  By comparison, the stone hags (who are denied the qirri) die.  Except Koll, but he isn't human.  Using drugs to sustain superhuman effort whilst starving results in death fairly quickly.

Magic in Earwa produces energy from where-ever.  It's the simplest explanation.  But you know, maybe they are getting it from endless fat reserves or super effective vitamins hidden in ash  ::)

Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.
My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's.  Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul.  But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.

Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head.  The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him.  She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.

Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them.  That's why he forces it on them.

Really liking this line of thought, Curethan. Especially because I think it fits into the idea of qirri (and chanv) being the result or sorcerous ashes, rather than anything special to the Nonmen. Perhaps, when a sorceror is "Choraed", it's his physical body that's incinerated, while the salt is the residue of his soul. Burning a Nonman (and, presumably a human), yields the same thing -- the body is gone, but the ashes that remain are infused with the soul residue.

The ability to grasp the onta is genetic afterall.