Investigating Achamian's Dreams

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Triskele

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« on: December 07, 2013, 04:10:53 pm »
I have an idea for a thread that I think could be quite worthwhile, but I wanted to throw it out there to the board for some feedback on how to best approach it.  I'm also not entirely sure what location would be best, so please move this to the WLW section if appropriate.


In the excerpt from the next book we get a pretty strong hint that the timing of Achamian's dreams is significant, and I think we ought to do a mini-project to chronicle the timing of each dream together.  I don't think that there are too many...maybe 2-3 per book?  But it would be fun to have, perhaps in chronological order, a place where we at the very least list the gist of each dream's contents as well as where Achamian is in the story and who he's with when each dream takes place. 

Sound good? 

That said, do some of you have ebooks that make copying and pasting easier?  I have hard copies of each book, but I don't have an easy copy and past option.  But at any rate, I think it might be fun and hopefully even revealing to look at all of the dreams to together, ponder the timing, and then perhaps formulate some new theories together on what the Hell is happening.

Thoughts?

Borque

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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2013, 07:26:21 pm »
Excellent idea. I have thought about analyzing them further in the light of the timing tidbit we got, but haven't gotten around to it. I'll help out in whatever spare time I have.

Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 11:48:25 pm »
I would actually suggest Misc. Chatter over WLW section. Since the dreams are something that encompass all the and aren't specific to any one in particular, and since there is no need to spoiler tag, this is probably the best place for them.

With each dream, since timing is apparently important, it would probably be good to note the chapter, the page, the book, and what edition (hard cover, paperback, US, Canada, etc.). That way it can be easily found. If you look it up with kindle or another electronic book, hopefully someone can look it up on hard copy to get that info.

I've got ebooks of the first 3 and I will probably have time later this week to start looking things up. I don't know if there is an ebook reader that tells you the page equivalent, but kindle doesn't do it.
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Crtha

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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 12:30:21 am »
Misc chatter seems best.  I don't think you can ignore the dream in TUC preview chapter.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 12:47:04 am »
Good thread. I have WLW on Kindle, so I'd be glad to post some of the dreams, but I have to figure out how to copy/paste from books (which is, surprisingly, not very straight forward...or maybe it's not surprising, given the nature of e-books and copyright issues). I'll google it and try to figure out a way.

If anyone knows where the dreams are roughly located that would help, I've only read WLW once so a lot of it's foggy for me. The first Nayu one happens when they're already in the Istyuli plains I think? I'm pretty sure that's after Akka's been gagged and bound by the Scalpers...Will try to find it.

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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2013, 01:27:04 am »
Akka's dreams are usually at the start his POV, which should make them easy to find.  At least in the cases where his POV begins with the chapter.
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Triskele

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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 03:07:24 am »
Akka's dreams are usually at the start his POV, which should make them easy to find.  At least in the cases where his POV begins with the chapter.

Yeah, at the very least, I should be able to point out where they're located tonight and/or tomorrow.  I think they nearly always kick of a POV section if not a chapter. 

I agree, Wilshire, that it would be ideal to note all of that detail, but we should also probably note whatever info we're given about which year it is and which season it is and whatnot...which I think we get at the beginning of each chapter.  Might help speculation about what else is going on in the world at the time.

Triskele

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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2013, 05:21:52 pm »
OK, here is a brief rundown of the first dream in the series.

TDTCB
Chapter One
Midwinter, 4110 Year-of-the-Tusk, Carythusal



This is the chapter where Achamian is in the Worm meeting Geshrunni.  He begins to learn about the first gears in the Holy War starting to turn such as that the Grandmaster of the SS has been assassinated by the Cishaurim.  Then Geshrunni goes out and perhaps meets a Consult agent.

Achamian's dream begins as Seswatha.  This is one of the dreams where Seswatha sees Celmomas struck down.  Seswatha pleads with him not to die.

Quote
     "Yes!  Yes.  The darkness of the No-God is not all-encompassing.  The Gods see us yet, dear friend. They are distant, but  i can hear them galloping across the skies. I can hear them cry out to me."
     "You cannot die, Celmomas! You must not die!"
     The High King shook his head, stilled him with tender eyes. "They call to me. They say that my end is not the world's end. That burden, they say, is yours. Yours, Seswatha."

The back-and-forth between Acha-as-Seswatha and Celmomas goes on a bit longer.  The stuff that will presumably become the Celmomian Prophecy is uttered by Celmomas. He dies, and Acha-as-Seswatha cried out that their king is dead.  Achamian then wakes up in a dark room.  Achamian weeps upon waking, and the POV section ends with him thinking that he hears a dog or a man howling in the distance.

Geshrunni is killed in the next section of the same chapter.

It then goes back to Achamian waking again with his head buzzing still from dreams of the Apocalypse.

He scribbles some of these notes:

Quote
Fords of Tywanrae.  Same.
Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and not S in mirror.


A curious discrepancy What could it mean? For a moment, he pondered the sour futility of the question.  Then he remembered awakening in the heart of the night. After a pause, he added:

Death and Prophecy of Anasurimbor Celmomas. Same.

But was it the same? In detail, certainly, but there had been a disturbing immediacy to the dream--enough to wake him. After scratching out "Same," he wrote:

Different. More powerful.


OK, so there's a sample of what I had in mind, or something like it.  I think it would be really cool if we could get all of the dreams down in one thread eventually to see if any ideas are revealed when they're all analyzed together. 

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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 05:28:22 pm »
Lol - I think this is what you want, Trisk. Have fun, kids. You are now officially joining those Mandate who've been lost to the madness of deciphering Seswatha's Dreams.

Gall, I should be studying for my exams ;).

Offscreen = Dream remembered or referred to
No location notation = Dream can't be place spatial in Earwa
No temporal notation = Dream can't be dated by referencing the TTT Glossary or the narrative whole

I'm sure I've missed some but...

Midwinter, 4110 Year-of-the-Tusk, Carythusal

- Celmomian Prophecy (TDTCB, p51, 2004 Canadian paperback)
- Fords of Tywanrae (offscreen) (TDTCB, p55)
- Burning of the Library of Sauglish (offscreen - Achamian sees his own face and not Seswatha's in a mirror) (TDTCB, p55)

Early Winter, 4111 Year-of-the-Tusk, Sumna - Achamian is in the valley of Sudica at the Kyranean ruin of Batathent; one of the few fortress-temples to survive the collapse of Kyraneas during the First Apocalypse.

- Advent of the No-God during the Second Investiture (offscreen) (TDTCB, p283)

Spring, 4111 Year-of-the-Tusk, Momemn

- Celmomian Prophecy (TDTCB, p472): Last Achamian perspective before he and Proyas meet Cnaiur and Kellhus.
- Celmomian Prophecy (offscreen) (TDTCB, p509): After Achamian has sat with and declared Kellhus his student.

Late Spring, 4111 Year-of-the-Tusk, South of Momemn

- Skafra, Tyrant of Cloud and Mountain & Seswatha, post-Celmomas' death (Nautzera's Dream) (TWP, p3, 2005 Canadian paperback)

Early Summer, 4111 Year-of-the-Tusk, the Plains of Mengedda

- No-God, Plains of Mengedda (TWP, 174)

Late Summer, 4111 Year-of-the-Tusk, Shigek

- Seswatha & Skuthula the Black (no location or temporal notation) (TWP, p324)

Early Autumn, 4111 Year-of-the-Tusk, Iothiah

- Seswatha looking over a battle at the Ring Mountains (no temporal notation but the reminiscence is made that it's 18 years before the No-God's destruction - this would have to be a mistake, based on the First Investiture (2124), Second Investiture (2143), and the No-God's defeat (2155). Also, Nil'giccas is spelt Nil'gikas but as we're reading the "Sheyic" translation of everything, this might actually be a more faithful spelling of the Ancient Kuniuric) (TWP, p414).

- Seswatha tortured "in the bowels of Dagliash" (offscreen) (TWP, p420).

Early Winter, 4111 Year-of-the-Tusk, the Meneanor coast, near Iothiah

- No-God at Mengedda (TWP, p539)

Early Spring, 4112 Year-of-the-Tusk, Enathpaneah

- Seswatha on the Wall of the Dead at Dagliash (Nautzera's Dream) (TTT, p4, 2006 Canadian paperback)

Early Spring, 4112 Year-of-the-Tusk, Xerash

- Nau-Cayuti & Seswatha in Golgotterath (TTT, p223)

Early Spring, 4112 Year-of-the-Tusk, Amoteu

- Nau-Cayuti & Seswatha in Golgotterath (TTT, p302)
- Nau-Cayuti & Seswatha in Golgotterath (TTT, p317)

Spring, 4112 Year-of-the-Tusk, Shimeh

- Nau-Cayuti & Seswatha in Golgotterath (TTT, 366)
- No-God, plains of Mengedda (dream with anomaly) (TTT, p493)

Early Spring, 19 New Imperial Year, southwestern Galeoth

- Seswatha at a feast for the Hunt-Glorious before slipping off to cuckold Celmomas with the High-King's wife, Suriala (no temporal notation) (TJE, p58, 2010 Canadian paperback).
- Seswatha stubbing his toe (offscreen, no temporal notation) (TJE, p138)
- Seswatha scolding a student (offscreen, no temporal notation) (TJE, p139)
- Seswatha reading the lost work of Gotagga's Parapolis (offscreen, no temporal notation) (TJE, p139)

Early Spring, 19 New Imperial Year, the River Rohil, Marrow

- Seswatha at Sauglish (dream with anomalies) (TJE, p221)
- Seswatha and Celmomas talking about the building of Ishual (no temporal notation) (TJE, p237)

Spring, 20 New Imperial Year, south of Mount Aenaratiol

- Sauglish sans Seswatha (dream with anomalies) (TJE, p462)
- Celmomas, Seswatha, and young Nau-Cayuti with the Map-Case (no temporal notation but probably before the First Investiture - also, Nau-Cayuti asks "Who's Mimara") (TJE, 480)

Spring, 20 New Imperial Year, Mount Aenaratiol

- Celmomas, Seswatha, and young Nau-Cayuti with the Map-Case (no temporal notation - also, no anomalies but Seswatha mentions that Celmomas has been having dreams, which he asks the High-King about without answer) (TJE, 600)

Spring, 20 New Imperial Year, the "Long Side"

- Seswatha hiding the Map-Case in the Coffers (no temporal notation, dream with anomalies) (WLW, p32, 2012 Canadian paperback)

The Mop

- Celmomas, Seswatha, and young Nau-Cayuti with the Map-Case (offscreen) (WLW, p106)
- The Nameless among the line of captives in forest walls (anomaly as we assume this isn't Seswatha) (WLW, p107)

Late Spring, 20 New Imperial Year, the "Long Side", the Mop

- The Nameless among the line of captives in forest walls, towards a sunlit clearing (Achamian even comments, in reminiscence, on the anomalies occurring at this point) (WLW, p248)

Early Summer, 20 New Imperial Year, the High Istyuli

- The Nameless among the line of captives in the Ark, moving towards the Golden Room (Achamian notes that he Dreams of another soul) (WLW, p433)

Summer, 20 New Imperial Year, the Istyuli Plains

- The first Dream as Nau-Cayuti (explicitly and by location only as the Dream continues after he's sleeping) where Ieva poisons Nau-Cayuti and tells the sleeping Prince her plans to have him buried as a Nonman (WLW, p628).
- The Nameless among the line of captives (WLW, 687)

Late Summer, 20 New Imperial Year, the Ruins of Sauglish

- Nau-Cayuti awakening in the Sarcophagus and being broken from it by Aurang himself (who Nau-Cayuti recognizes) (WLW, p825)

Late Summer, 20 New Imperial Year, the Demua Mountains

- Nau-Cayuti awakening, rising in one of the Ark's seemingly bottomless horns, on Shauriatas' Ten-Wretch Sigil platform, being grilled on the location of the Heron Spear (TUC, Ch. 1 Excerpt)

EDIT: Updated to reflect the books from which the quotes are drawn from; listed in the first citations from each book.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 01:42:29 am by Madness »
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2013, 02:20:22 am »
Righto, so I think I have the ones from WLW all bookmarked and highlighted. Am I allowed to copy and paste them verbatim, or should I just do rundowns?

Wilshire

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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 03:02:41 am »
Summary would probably be best, though thats just my gut feeling.
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Triskele

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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 03:43:51 am »
Madness - Thank for that great list.


One thing that I think really ought to be highlighted in any instance that it occurs is if Akka reflects on the dream.  Things like what I quoted on the first when where he notes discrepancies.  I am pretty sure that we don't get that every time, but we should note it when it happens. 

I should be able to do a few more like the last one later tonight.

locke

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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2013, 08:57:46 am »
Quote
Late Spring, 4111 Year-of-the-Tusk, South of Momemn

- Skafra, Tyrant of Cloud and Mountain & Seswatha, post-Celmomas' death (TWP, p3)
Not Achamian's dream.


the one where celmomas is telling seswatha he's been having dreams should be seen as a prompt to akka to pay attention to his dreams.

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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 03:39:25 pm »
Righto, so I think I have the ones from WLW all bookmarked and highlighted. Am I allowed to copy and paste them verbatim, or should I just do rundowns?

I think I have eight (one offscreen) from WLW listed above, FB. Find anymore?

Also, I don't think verbatim is an issue if you cite them? However, obviously, copy and pasting whole sections of the books seems, subjectively, like bad form.

Madness - Thank for that great list.


One thing that I think really ought to be highlighted in any instance that it occurs is if Akka reflects on the dream.  Things like what I quoted on the first when where he notes discrepancies.  I am pretty sure that we don't get that every time, but we should note it when it happens. 

I should be able to do a few more like the last one later tonight.

No worries, Trisk. The benefits of pursuing academics ;).

All the "offscreen" notations reflect Achamian's remembering or reminiscing on a Dream rather than dreaming it directly. Also, I know in a few instances, I noted that Achamian reflects on the Dream anomalies. Hopefully, though, my notes provide everyone, at the very least, with rudimentary notation enough to begin pursuing your specific objectives.

Quote
Late Spring, 4111 Year-of-the-Tusk, South of Momemn

- Skafra, Tyrant of Cloud and Mountain & Seswatha, post-Celmomas' death (TWP, p3)
Not Achamian's dream.


the one where celmomas is telling seswatha he's been having dreams should be seen as a prompt to akka to pay attention to his dreams.

I believe only the two at the beginnings of TWP and TTT, respectively, are Nautzera's Dreams and I've edited my post accordingly.

Also, the latter Dream you are referring to is the one I mentioned from TJE, p600, right?
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 11:22:14 pm »
Hah, yeah, didn't see your post there Madness before I put mine. You actually found more of them then I did, but I think that should cover all the WLW ones.