Who attacked the Scarlet Spires and why?

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Borric

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« on: December 16, 2013, 07:40:18 pm »
We have the account of Eleazaras.
Clearly stating that three Cish walked through a portal into their inner sanctum and proceeded to nuke the joint.
The description of the attackers mentions empty eye sockets (but no snakes around necks)
Also, energy emanating from their foreheads.

So let’s assume it was the Cishaurim.
That would mean Moe was the author of the attack.
Dragging the Spires into the Holy War and providing it, with a powerful enough school to get the job done. 

However, I have heard others state their assumption that the Consult carried out the attack.
That the consult were concerned about a recent development at Shimeh.
Namely the Chishaurims ability (actually its Moe’s Dunyain ability) to discover their skin spies.
And that’s why they were attempting to manipulate Xerius into assisting the Holy War.
If it was the consult, why could Eleazaras see no blemish from sorcery?
Who exactly were these eyeless assassins if not Cishaurim?

So which is it?

Madness

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« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2013, 10:52:31 pm »
So let’s assume it was the Cishaurim.
That would mean Moe was the author of the attack.

I don't think so?

Xerius was ready to impose the Imperial Saik onto the Holy War via Indenture. Moenghus didn't need to instigate the Scarlet Spires to have a school for Kellhus or the Holy War. Furthermore, if his intention was to convince a school to join the Holy War, he could have somehow manipulated the Mandate into pursuing new Consult Spies to Shimeh when Maithanet declared the Holy War (that actually would have made an incredible read, had the X-Factor of the Dunyain not always being a crucial part of Bakker's plan) (hell, reasons Moenghus didn't do this may even feed into reasons for a party other than the Cishaurim crashing the Scarlet Spires' Sanctums).

Also, there is the discrepancy between Aurang's reminiscence and Kellhus' retelling of his father's narrative, "decades" vs. "twelve years," which casts doubt on the narrative entire.

I happen to believe Kellhus is right about the narrative, excepting the years. But then there's lockesnow's skull to consider, "Kellhus' mis-step" literally following his narration of the Scarlet Spires' attack.

I can't imagine it was the skin-spy anomaly, only because I think the ability to work the Psukhe requires a real (as opposed to Consult created) soul.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 10:55:17 pm by Madness »
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2013, 11:12:20 pm »
Iirc, Kellhus' assertion is that the Cish believed the SS responsible for the first skin spy that Moe uncovered.  Not knowing what it meant, he did not cover it up when he discovered it.
The Cish don't believe the consult are a threat, so attack SS in revenge.  Moe works out what is happening but is unable to stop the primarch and co. from taking this action.

The Cish order the assasination (which occurs some time later) and Moe works the repercussions into TTT.
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« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2013, 11:23:39 pm »
That's the Kellhus narrative, yes.
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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 06:34:37 am »
Which is what I said. :DD
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 01:32:18 pm »
Lol.

I just thought we'd have all assumed that the thread takes Kellhus' story to be false?
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« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 12:19:37 am »
It's the only one that really makes any sense. :p
Kelhlus constantly deceives, but he very rarely lies imo.
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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 11:55:10 am »
Kellhus had no inside cultural view of his father?

I'm sure Kellhus has the broad strokes of what happened to Moenghus become Mallahet down. However, he definitely seems to have the date of discovering the skin-spies wrong (he probably extrapolated from the attack on the Spire Sanctums; I tend to believe Aurang when it thinks "decades" since the skin-spies couldn't get into the High Houses of Fanimry over Kellhus' twelve years since discovery).

Do I think things happened as the Kellhus' narrative? Again, I tend to doubt that he knew enough of the specifics ferreal.

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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2013, 12:55:47 pm »
Easier to attribute that to authorial inconsistency, to me. 

Kellhus is laying the passage of events out for exposition to the reader rather than any necessity of info exchange or semantic maneuvering between the characters, imo.

Perhaps there is some deeper game and this subtle clue is the key.  Not buying in though.
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locke

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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2013, 06:10:42 pm »
Let's take it from the top, I'll begin with the Confirmation Moenghus gives Kellhus to tell Kellhus that everything up to this point is correct, "my inference was warrented." Kellhus continues his monologuing until Moenghus' next comment, in which Moenghus tells Kellhus in no uncertain terms that Kellhus is wrong in the particulars of these assessments, that he is deceived, "these words are mechanisms of control." In between Moenghus' two comments we have a single break from Kellhus' monologuing, in which Kellhus stumbles--literally he takes a wrong step--which is unprecedented for him.  This seems to be an authorial indication that Kellhus is incorrect, an indication that is swiftly diagetically reinforced by Moenghus' rebuke of Kellhus, "these words are mechanisms of control."

Quote
“My inference was warranted,” Moënghus said from the black before him.

“Indeed. We dwarf the worldborn. They are less than children to us. No matter what we encounter, be it their philosophy, their medicine, their poetry, or even their faith, we see so much deeper, and our strength is that much greater.

“So you assumed taking up the Water would be no different, that becoming one of the Indara-Kishauri would make you godlike in comparison. And since the Cishaurim themselves scarcely understand the metaphysics of their practice, there was nothing you could learn that would contradict this assumption. You couldn’t know that the Psûkhe was a metaphysic of the heart, not the intellect. Of passion

“So you let them blind you, only to find your powers proportionate to your vestigial passions. What you thought to be the Shortest Path was in fact a dead end.”

“Seökti and the others respect you,” Kellhus continued. “Indeed, as Mallahet you have a reputation that reaches across Kian and beyond. And you shine in the Third Sight. But secretly, they all think you cursed by the Solitary God. Why else would the Water elude you?

“And without your eyes, your ability to discern what comes before is much reduced. The snakes are but pinholes. For years you waged futile war against your circumstance, and though your intellect could astound those about you and earn you access to their most privileged counsels, the instant they found themselves beyond the force of your presence, the undermining whispers were rekindled. ‘He is weak.’

“Then, about twelve years ago, you discovered the first of the Consult skin-spies—probably through discrepancies in their voices. The Cishaurim were thrown into an uproar, that much is certain. And even though no one knew the slightest thing about the creatures, the blame was placed on the Scarlet Spires. For only the greatest of the Schools, they thought, could dare, let alone execute, such an outrage. Infiltrate the Cishaurim?

“But you were Dûnyain, and though our brothers know nothing of the arcane, our understanding of the mundane is without peer. You realized that these things weren’t sorcerous artifacts, that they were engines of the flesh. But you couldn’t convince the others, who sought to instruct the Scarlet Spires on the perilous course they had taken. There must be consequences. So the Cishaurim assassinated the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, prompting a war that will find its conclusion this very day …”

Just then, Kellhus inadvertently kicked something lying upon the graven floor. Something hollow and fibrous. A skull?

“But you,” he continued without hesitation, “kept the creatures, and over years of torment you eventually broke them down. You learned of Golgotterath, her ramparts heaped about the horns of an ancient derelict, a vessel fallen from the void in the days when Nonmen yet ruled Eärwa; of the Inchoroi and the great war they waged against long-dead Nonmen Kings. You learned how the last survivors of that fell race, Aurang and Aurax, perverted the heart of their Nonman captor, Mekeritrig, and how he corrupted Shauriatis, the Grandmaster of the Mangaecca, in his turn. You learned how this wicked cabal broke the glamour about Golgotterath, and made its horrors their own …

“You learned of the Consult.”

“These words you speak,” Moënghus said from the black, “‘wicked,’ ‘corrupted,’ ‘perverted’ … why would you use them when you know they are nothing more than mechanisms of control?”

speaking of passion, Kellhus is rather passionate in his insistence on being oh-so-very-much-above the worldborn.  Seems an unDunyain passion, his love of himself.

Madness

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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2013, 12:52:02 pm »
Easier to attribute that to authorial inconsistency, to me. 

Kellhus is laying the passage of events out for exposition to the reader rather than any necessity of info exchange or semantic maneuvering between the characters, imo.

Perhaps there is some deeper game and this subtle clue is the key.  Not buying in though.

I think, Kellhus and Moenghus were playing the same game, and likely a much more skilled version of:

(click to show/hide)

I hate to derail the thread further but what fills the gap within the discrepancy between Aurang's perspective and Kellhus?

...

I just wish there had been direct validation in the latter half of Kellhus' narrative, if our nerdanels aren't to be warranted :(.
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Ishammael

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« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2013, 07:17:27 pm »
One of my issues with the theory that the Cish are really the ones behind the attack is the whole "stepping out of a portal" thing.  Are there any other examples of the Cish (or any others for that matter) stepping out of portals, or teleporting, besides this?  Kell obviously notwithstanding.  I was under the impression that he was the first to be able to do anything like this, and it is accmplished in a different way.
If the Cish had this ability, then wouldn't they have used it in the Holy War?  It can't be the case that only a select few had the power to do this, because I can't believe they would sacrifice the only ones capable of creating these portals on a suicide mission.

I don't know who else it could have been... other than maybe some other entity from the Outside?  I don't recall what the description of the Ciphrang's arrival into the world is like, but maybe it is something along those lines?  Is it possible there was an inner struggle within the Scarlet Spires and some rival Daimos weilding faction is involved?  It is certainly a stretch... but I just can't accept the Cish argument here.  Kell's assumptions seem to be based on so little factual evidence and do not seem to coincide with what I can recall of how the Cish work.

Somnambulist

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« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2013, 08:01:03 pm »
I still think Moenghus was behind it, sending a few of his adherents through the portal that he opened himself.  I don't think there were a bunch of Cishaurim running around with that ability.  Seeing how Kellhus can convince his followers to commit suicide, I don't think it would have been difficult for Moe to send a few of his on a kamikaze run.  Convoluted as it may seem, its not called the Thousandfold Thought for nothing, and Moe was its originator after all.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2013, 08:13:46 pm »
Maybe this portal thing was a group effort to open the door, and it took an immense amount of time and effort... Still though that doesn't explain why we never see their special door show up. Seems like a nifty hit-and-run tactic. I do still think Moe was behind it, either directly or in some roundabout fashion.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2013, 09:42:59 pm »
I still think Moenghus was behind it, sending a few of his adherents through the portal that he opened himself.  I don't think there were a bunch of Cishaurim running around with that ability.  Seeing how Kellhus can convince his followers to commit suicide, I don't think it would have been difficult for Moe to send a few of his on a kamikaze run.  Convoluted as it may seem, its not called the Thousandfold Thought for nothing, and Moe was its originator after all.

Agreed. And in fact we already know that Moe's capable of convincing his followers to commit suicide for his gain; the one Cishaurim that tells Kellhus about the TT lets himself be killed (in fact I think he insists on it).