Who attacked the Scarlet Spires and why?

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Madness

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« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2014, 03:15:45 am »
To be honest, I've always thought that the Cishaurim simply walked the Shadow Way a la Achamian and Xinemus in TWP; Achamian suggests that the Cishaurim are masters of the World-Between interval.

The World-Between might reflect something akin to Warrens in Malazan (obviously, not so central as Warrens).

Otherwise, I support your nerdanels that Moenghus is behind some extra-special Cishaurim Metapsukhe... however, I don't believe that Moenghus supported the assassination of Sasheoka nor would he help the Cishaurim accomplish it...

So still leaning towards the walking the Shadow Way.
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Crtha

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« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2014, 11:35:21 am »
+1 Madness.  The precautions the SS take after the assassination seem to support the 'shadow walking' scenario imo.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 11:39:38 am by Curethan »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2014, 02:34:40 am »
I find it hard to imagine that Moenghus Sr. found the first skin-spy and just let everyone know about it all careless like. I don't subscribe to the meta-moenghus theories, but even still, that seems like quite the blunder leaving an unknown just laying around for anyone to see.
Repercussions indeed. Maybe he planned on winning the war until they forced a school to march?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 02:36:46 am by Wilshire »
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« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2014, 02:40:24 am »
We don't know that Moenghus the Elder actually did discover the skin-spies? Though, it does make sense that he did... But it could be something as simple as all the Cishaurim can tell that the skin-spies are not ensoulled beings, that they exist of matter alone.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2014, 02:42:30 am »
A fair point I suppose. I forgot that all them blind folk see things they shouldn't. Probably odd to see a human without a soul.
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Crtha

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« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2014, 04:49:19 am »
I have no inclination to believe that Cish can truely see souls.  We have only Meppa's assertion to guide that assumption and EAMD.

It's not like Kellhus managed to detect the skin spies without consequently alerting anyone else, and he had the advantage of sight.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2014, 06:23:28 pm »
He did? I can't remember why he told anyone about Skios (sp), but aside from that he didn't let anyone know what he had seen other spies around. Hell he tried to hide the first death of Sarcellus. He only revealed his true nature once he realized it was the only real way to get rid of him. I seem to recall him keeping it a secret rather well, is that wrong?
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Borric

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« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2014, 07:50:08 pm »
I think Curethan means, Kellhus inadvertently alerted the emperor by looking at his advisor in some odd manner.

As for Moe not being behind the hit on the SS base?

I thought thats what the TTT was all about.
Send his Son to organise a Holy war for his other, Dunyain Son to use, so he could ultimately unite the three seas and destroy the Consult in order to save the world.
He needed a school with a real chance of beating the Cish, and the Imperial Saik would not cut it.
Hell the SS lost to the Cish as it was, and they were the most powerful school available. (Were it not for Kellhus last minute rescue)

Well no one has anything to offer on the Consult being in any way to blame for the hit.
It was never my understanding that they were, but i do remember others stating it as fact in previous posts.
I was looking for any evidence for that argument, because i have a nagging feeling there was something...



Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2014, 08:13:44 pm »
I'll not turn this into a thread about what the goal of TTT was, but yes that is one interpretation. Pretty much the war probably would have never marched without a school to protect them, so yeah they needed some kick in the ass to get going. That would be why Moenghus orchestrated that attack, yes.
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2014, 08:42:50 pm »
I'm gonna throw another bit of (semantic) evidence into the ring for Moe being behind the Cish attack.  The scene is Kell and Moe in the interrogation room, discussing Moe's apparent lack of strength in the Water (TTT, US version, hard cover, 2006, pg. 350):

"I have some facility for those elements of the Psukhe that require more subtlety than power. Scrying, Calling, Translating..."

To me, he basically describes all the necessary disciplines of executing the attack on the SS.  Scrying to see where he needs to send his assassins.  Calling, as we know, was the base principle used by Kel to augment the gnostic cant of calling into a meta-cant of transposing (i.e., teleportation).  And Translating... to me, the ace in the hole.  While the most common definition of translation is from one language to another, I don't think a blind Moe would be sitting around creating Rosetta Stones somehow.  Another definition, according to Google anyway, is:

"the process of moving something from one place to another"

That pretty much seals it for me, along with the already-mentioned motivations about arming the Holy War with a School powerful enough to overcome the Cishaurim, and the whole kicking the skull in the dark (i.e., Kel makes a mistake in his assumptions), etc.  To add to the School comment, I believe Moe was aware of the Mandate and their power.  With the destruction of the Cishaurim, the Scarlet Spires was also broken.  They lost so many sorcerers of rank that they could no longer call themselves the dominant School of the Three Seas.  That honor went to the Mandate, and Kel became their most powerful practitioner.  Moe handed the Mandate to Kel, effectively.

As for the Consult being behind the attack...  I never got that impression at all.  If it's there, I don't see it.  They could have simply instructed Chepheramunni (the skin-spy) to kill the Grandmaster, and the SS would probably have come to the same conclusion:  that it showed no bruise of sorcery so it must have been Cishaurim.  Doesn't make sense to me.
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locke

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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2014, 09:20:41 pm »
I'm so glad someone else interpreted the scrying, calling translating progression the same was as I did.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2014, 11:03:48 pm »
Yeah, that's a fucking great catch. Count me in the "Moe did it" camp (then again I'm in the "Moe's still alive and fucking with everyone" camp).

Madness

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« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2014, 01:16:14 pm »
Just fyi: I don't think that there is anyway that the Thousandfold Thought included Kellhus getting the Gnosis. Certainly, Moenghus the Elder might have been planning on some Mandate interaction, and only if he knew about the Celmomian Prophecy.

The true purpose of having a school with the Holy War is so that Kellhus might dominate them and, ultimately, learn sorcery. I'm all for nerdanels but there is just no way Moenghus could have counted on everything that happens to Achamian before Kellhus pulls his knife-craft and get the Gnosis released.
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2014, 02:14:56 pm »
Well, it's all nerdanel  :) but consider this: 

1) Moe knew about all things First Apocalypse through the skin spies, so he would have known about the Mandate and that they were the only surviving gnostic school

2) As soon as Maitha found out about Proyas' relationship with Alia he practically demanded he assist him

3) Moe could follow the TTT all the way up to the Circumfiction, well into any interaction with the Msndate

4) Moe would have trusted that Kel woulld be able to obtain the gnosis through his dunyain
abilities (another reason he needed a full blood dunyain)

I think there's more but I haven't had coffee yet.    ;D
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« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2014, 02:19:06 pm »
Conceded based on point 2. I've always wondered about that missive and you've satisfied me in ways no previous theory has ;).
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