Just started this...posting my thoughts (and just general discussion)

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Francis Buck

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« on: January 04, 2014, 05:09:17 am »
I started this last night. It's my first non-TSA book by Bakker. I figured it'd be good to have a sort of "miscellaneous thoughts" thread for the book.

My initial reaction, copy/pasted from Westeros:

Quote
Anyways, I read the Kindle sample of Disciple of the Dog, then bought the book on a whim. I'm maybe forty-ish pages in, and rather enjoying it to be honest. I can tell Bakker's trying to be funny, and I did smirk here and there, but it's more just a casual amusement rather than genuine humor. But it's definitely well-written, the basic plot is interesting so far, and I'm enjoying the experience of reading Bakker's prose from first person, and without the (what I think is) often somewhat forced feeling "scriptural tone" of TSA.

I will post my other thoughts upon completion, but for now I have one question: is there any word of this becoming a series?

ETA: Oh, and one thing I meant to mention earlier is that I happen to live in PA, and it's amusing to me because Disciple's (and other characters') way of speaking sounds very...well, not from PA. Maybe it's Canadian? The biggest one was the use of "bloody" (like, "this guy's bloody ugly"). For me that's distinctly European. Is it common for people to say it in Canada? Just curious.

Of course this is wildly irrelevant to the quality of the story, it's just something I had to touch on.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 05:24:51 am by Francis Buck »

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« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2014, 01:42:15 pm »
Gall, FB.

Just read his books - haters gonna hate ;). I give them my stamp of approval.

[EDIT: Especially, read the Light, Time, & Gravity draft on TPB, if you want to pick up writing tips from Bakker's works (though, Neuropath will always be among my favorites).

Lmao, segue, but I was just reminded of the time I was in Tim Horton's on break from work and made the terrible mistake of approaching a girl who happened to be reading Neuropath. I assumed she was reading a book because she was interested in, you know, what she was reading. I instantaneously realized my mistake as the look of horror came across her face while she connected me to the disturbing content of the book - apparently, a friend, who she was considering never talking to again, had recommended it to her (don't ask me why someone would keep reading, if such was their logic). Suffice it to say, no date after work that night.]

I started this last night. It's my first non-TSA book by Bakker. I figured it'd be good to have a sort of "miscellaneous thoughts" thread for the book.

Thanks, FB. Though I do hope you partake in the mixtape breakdown and analyses at some point.

My initial reaction, copy/pasted from Westeros:

Quote
Anyways, I read the Kindle sample of Disciple of the Dog, then bought the book on a whim. I'm maybe forty-ish pages in, and rather enjoying it to be honest. I can tell Bakker's trying to be funny, and I did smirk here and there, but it's more just a casual amusement rather than genuine humor. But it's definitely well-written, the basic plot is interesting so far, and I'm enjoying the experience of reading Bakker's prose from first person, and without the (what I think is) often somewhat forced feeling "scriptural tone" of TSA.

I will post my other thoughts upon completion, but for now I have one question: is there any word of this becoming a series?

Do remember, Bakker thought this was going to be his vehicle to the mainstream. He seems to have worked on a stable voice for himself, something equal parts witty, cynic, armchair philosopher and psychologist. But... he's probably just flying to low on the radar of what's known today.

So yeah, there's the Enlightened Dead, which he's mentioned on the blog, and I was once privy to the title of a third, of which he's written some of both (Disciple only took him three months, arguably while writing WLW, so he definitely thought to attempt a money-making vehicle).

It's unfortunate.

ETA: Oh, and one thing I meant to mention earlier is that I happen to live in PA, and it's amusing to me because Disciple's (and other characters') way of speaking sounds very...well, not from PA. Maybe it's Canadian? The biggest one was the use of "bloody" (like, "this guy's bloody ugly"). For me that's distinctly European. Is it common for people to say it in Canada? Just curious.

Of course this is wildly irrelevant to the quality of the story, it's just something I had to touch on.

It's Canadian. And that particular one isn't super-common.

You have to understand, we basically appropriate any type of English word, in any language, dialect, or creole, which sounds pleasing to our ears. Hell, we even do it with French and just repeat expressions until they take on a new slang meaning ;).
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 01:48:17 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2014, 06:04:58 pm »
I love Tim Hortens (they removed the apostrophe a while ago didn't they?). Wish there were any where I'm at.

Happy reading FB. I thought they whole thing was pretty hilarious, but that's my type of humor.
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« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2014, 12:37:34 pm »
Lol - don't hate me buddy but I cut the umbilical about a 6 months ago. Been drinking nothing but fair trade at the three good local shops :).
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2014, 10:20:05 pm »
Alright then, I finished it last night. After digesting a little, I'd say that, overall, I thought it was only decent. There were flickers of greatness here and there, and I suspect that if this had been more of a "main project", rather than a side-one that he wrote in three months, it likely would have turned pretty fantastic. Regardless, I still found it an enjoyable and occasionally amusing read. My thoughts:

 - Disciple, as a character, was pretty well realized. I didn't really like his "voice" though. I found it...I'm not sure, grating. The idioms and stuff put me off a bit, and in general there was an air of someone that thinks they're utterly hilarious, but really isn't. I get that Bakker wasn't exactly trying to make a super likable guy here, and I certainly don't need likable characters to enjoy literature by any means, but I felt like Diss just wasn't quite properly executed. The humor is a big thing. I think I just have a somewhat different sense of humor than Bakker or something, at least in the way it translates through his writing. TSA is virtually without levity for me, aside from the absurdity of Xerius's personality and the batshit craziness of Cnaiur. In DotD, I genuinely laughed maybe two or threes times. One was when he said (in reference to the size of Baars' mouth): "I tried to picture him eating a hamburger -- couldn't do it".

- The plot was good, but I did not find the ending very satisfying to be honest. The twists, while surprising, didn't have a lot of oomph for me.

- By far the best parts of the novel are the sequences when he's replaying old scenes in his head, but with a new context. That stuff was a great, and it's a brilliant literary device.

- None of the characters did much for me aside from Diss, Baars, and the cop (having a brain-lapse here on his name). The latter, especially, was very well done. I loved the scene where he draws X's on the map, and all Diss can think about is how gay they look. That got a good chuckle out of me too. I found Molly boring. I'm also still made uncomfortable with Bakker's writing about women. I don't know what it is in particular, but it just...I don't know, makes me feel sticky.

- I liked that, in a weird way, Diss does very little the entire novel that really contributes to the case. He basically just smokes pot and figures everything out in his head while watching CNN, but by then it doesn't even matter. This might be the most hilarious part of the book, really.

- Diss starts farting when he gets into dangerous situations. Brilliantly subversive of genre tropes.

So yeah, those are my off the cuff thoughts. I do have more, particularly in regards to the ties with TSA (especially concepts of memory, of course), but I'm short on time. Again, it was an entertaining read, but I feel like it just lacked enough polish in the big areas (plot, characters, resolution) to be considered a real success. I'd definitely be interested in reading a sequel.

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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2014, 11:14:03 pm »
Just read Neuropath FB, it will scare you shitless:)


Francis Buck

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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2014, 02:38:39 am »
I find that hard to believe given what I know of Bakker's philosophy and the novel itself, but it's certainly on my list. I'd enjoy being genuinely scared shitless by some fiction.

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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2014, 10:53:50 am »
Quote
I find that hard to believe given what I know of Bakker's philosophy and the novel itself, but it's certainly on my list. I'd enjoy being genuinely scared shitless by some fiction.

It is not directly frightening on a personal level, more that the ideas on neuroscientific development are not really fiction.
These methods might be used some day, and that scares me.

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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2014, 01:16:15 pm »
I find that hard to believe given what I know of Bakker's philosophy and the novel itself, but it's certainly on my list. I'd enjoy being genuinely scared shitless by some fiction.

It'll always be one of my favorites. It made me wish that Bakker would try his hand at horror and provided another layer of excitement whenever I read the shades of Neuropath in TSA.

Alright then, I finished it last night. After digesting a little, I'd say that, overall, I thought it was only decent. There were flickers of greatness here and there, and I suspect that if this had been more of a "main project", rather than a side-one that he wrote in three months, it likely would have turned pretty fantastic. Regardless, I still found it an enjoyable and occasionally amusing read.


His plan allegedly was to balance something he could write while maintaining all the ongoing projects.

I would hope that Bakker also had an overarching idea for some fitting Moriarty character. It was what it was. Disciple came out before WLW. He's probably dead :(.

My thoughts:

 - Disciple, as a character, was pretty well realized. I didn't really like his "voice" though. I found it...I'm not sure, grating. The idioms and stuff put me off a bit, and in general there was an air of someone that thinks they're utterly hilarious, but really isn't. I get that Bakker wasn't exactly trying to make a super likable guy here, and I certainly don't need likable characters to enjoy literature by any means, but I felt like Diss just wasn't quite properly executed. The humor is a big thing. I think I just have a somewhat different sense of humor than Bakker or something, at least in the way it translates through his writing. TSA is virtually without levity for me, aside from the absurdity of Xerius's personality and the batshit craziness of Cnaiur. In DotD, I genuinely laughed maybe two or threes times. One was when he said (in reference to the size of Baars' mouth): "I tried to picture him eating a hamburger -- couldn't do it".

Interesting. What did you think about the strength of individual metaphors? Many of his comparisons make me smile or laugh, possibly more-so than the intended humor between the characters.

Also, I thought the small-town, Third Reich Church, pretty humourous.

- The plot was good, but I did not find the ending very satisfying to be honest. The twists, while surprising, didn't have a lot of oomph for me.

- By far the best parts of the novel are the sequences when he's replaying old scenes in his head, but with a new context. That stuff was a great, and it's a brilliant literary device.

- None of the characters did much for me aside from Diss, Baars, and the cop (having a brain-lapse here on his name). The latter, especially, was very well done. I loved the scene where he draws X's on the map, and all Diss can think about is how gay they look. That got a good chuckle out of me too. I found Molly boring. I'm also still made uncomfortable with Bakker's writing about women. I don't know what it is in particular, but it just...I don't know, makes me feel sticky.

- I liked that, in a weird way, Diss does very little the entire novel that really contributes to the case. He basically just smokes pot and figures everything out in his head while watching CNN, but by then it doesn't even matter. This might be the most hilarious part of the book, really.

- Diss starts farting when he gets into dangerous situations. Brilliantly subversive of genre tropes.

So yeah, those are my off the cuff thoughts. I do have more, particularly in regards to the ties with TSA (especially concepts of memory, of course), but I'm short on time. Again, it was an entertaining read, but I feel like it just lacked enough polish in the big areas (plot, characters, resolution) to be considered a real success. I'd definitely be interested in reading a sequel.

- The plot seems to establish what it needed to as an introduction to the character. I was also surprised by the ending (which I liked) but then I realized Bakker had more books planned.

- I too enjoy the fictive device. I was excited for the inevitable cross-section of his memories and his war buddy story, which I'm sure Bakker would dole out over successive novels.

- I actually have studied detective fiction a bit and Bakker's par for the course. He consciously built up the misogyny aspects of his blog during that time and gave Disciple a few disclaimers. But the history of detective fiction is notoriously misogynist. The women is always guilty of something. And realistically, I could spend some time reading different sections of Disciple to give them better analysis because I feel like Disciple's commentary is more than half the gold in the book. Disciple is talking to the people in our world (though, I can understand how colloquialisms annoy people).

- I thought that this felt the like the overall thrust of the book and something I've tried to breakdown in the mixtape (as far as I've gotten). Disciple fits some of the traditional modes in many creative ways. In a surprising amount of detective fiction, the detective doesn't actually affect any solution in his interaction with the case, only offers the most comprehensive description of what has occurred. Also, the detective is notorious for introducing violence into the world he enters, by his presence (for instance, all the things that occurred with the Church of the Third Reich that would not have happened but for Disciple).

- Farts are subversive. But there is more depth. I think, you underestimate the man's commitment to dismantling genre tropes.

Just thoughts. You're the third person to muse openly about Disciple.

But I am excited and on my way to being late.

Cheers, FB, Royce.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2014, 12:36:36 am »
Interesting. What did you think about the strength of individual metaphors? Many of his comparisons make me smile or laugh, possibly more-so than the intended humor between the characters.

Also, I thought the small-town, Third Reich Church, pretty humourous.

Bakker's pretty great with metaphors in general. As far as DotG goes though, I can't say anything really stood out to me in particular, but that doesn't mean there weren't any.

Quote
- The plot seems to establish what it needed to as an introduction to the character. I was also surprised by the ending (which I liked) but then I realized Bakker had more books planned.

Yeah, I can see what you mean in the context of this being an introduction to a series. I'm not really sure what it was about the ending exactly, but it just lacked oomph for me. The resolution to the mystery and all, I don't know, it fell a bit flat I guess.

Quote
- I too enjoy the fictive device. I was excited for the inevitable cross-section of his memories and his war buddy story, which I'm sure Bakker would dole out over successive novels.

That's an interesting point, regarding the war buddy. I was actually wondering after reading it why that character didn't seem to have any "arc" so to speak (not really the right word), but again it definitely makes more sense in thinking of this as an introductory novel.

Quote
- I actually have studied detective fiction a bit and Bakker's par for the course. He consciously built up the misogyny aspects of his blog during that time and gave Disciple a few disclaimers. But the history of detective fiction is notoriously misogynist. The women is always guilty of something. And realistically, I could spend some time reading different sections of Disciple to give them better analysis because I feel like Disciple's commentary is more than half the gold in the book. Disciple is talking to the people in our world (though, I can understand how colloquialisms annoy people).

Can you elaborate on how he "consciously built up the misogyny aspects of his blog during that time and gave Disciple a few disclaimers"? Not really sure what you mean. As for it being par for the course, while that's true, it's just the way Bakker writes that gets to me. It's the same exact thing in TSA. I mean, I don't think Bakker is literally some kind of woman hating misogynist or anything, but I also can't ignore that the same faint air of...I don't know, almost casual sexism (like he doesn't even realize it), happens to pop up again in a completely separate work. And hell, if he's subverting all these other detective genre tropes, why not subvert that one? It's just weird to me. But, I digress, I don't want this to turn into a huge "Bakker-and-misogyny" thing simply because I've been through the debate too many times and I'm kinda weary of it.

Quote
- Farts are subversive. But there is more depth. I think, you underestimate the man's commitment to dismantling genre tropes.

Elaborate?

ETA: Started to read Neuropath today as well, actually got about half-way through. It's...interesting. Not sure how I feel about it quite yet, I'll post my thoughts when I'm done though.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 12:38:25 am by Francis Buck »

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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2014, 02:01:29 am »
Bakker's pretty great with metaphors in general. As far as DotG goes though, I can't say anything really stood out to me in particular, but that doesn't mean there weren't any.

I've been picking some of my favorites in the Mixtape (though, many more of the quotes are obviously to further the plot of the summaries or record pertinent evidence).

Yeah, I can see what you mean in the context of this being an introduction to a series. I'm not really sure what it was about the ending exactly, but it just lacked oomph for me. The resolution to the mystery and all, I don't know, it fell a bit flat I guess.

It definitely seems the first mystery of a memorable series. That seemed the point of framing the whole thing as journalistic therapy and that this was the story Disciple chose to tell as starter.

That's an interesting point, regarding the war buddy. I was actually wondering after reading it why that character didn't seem to have any "arc" so to speak (not really the right word), but again it definitely makes more sense in thinking of this as an introductory novel.

If I picked characters connected to any person or organization pulling the strings behind the scenes to exploit Disciple's memory for some nefarious purpose, I'd pick the war buddy (Lol - damnit, what's his name... where's my Disciple?) or Mr. Bonjour.

Can you elaborate on how he "consciously built up the misogyny aspects of his blog during that time and gave Disciple a few disclaimers"?

Well, a number of his posts that summer felt written in a particular voice and then it became apparent that that voice was Disciple's. He made a whole bunch of commentary, in theme of "if my critics think TSA and Neuropath are bad for misogyny, Disciple is going to really get to them."

Not really sure what you mean. As for it being par for the course, while that's true, it's just the way Bakker writes that gets to me. It's the same exact thing in TSA. But I mean, I don't think Bakker is literally some kind of woman hating misogynist or anything, but I also can't ignore that the same faint air of...I don't know, almost casual sexism (like he doesn't even realize it), happens to pop up again in a completely separate work.

The one thing that gets me about the accusations of sexism is that everyone just recognizes it for what it is. Really? Because I seriously doubt that if people sat around and defined their versions of sexism in the same conversation that they throw criticisms at one person, they'd realize that they don't agree on anything at all.

However, I specifically meant that in the sense that Detective Fiction as a genre maintains a gendered narrative scheme and Bakker is trying to somehow consciously exploit that.

And hell, if he's subverting all these other detective genre tropes, why not subvert that one? It's just weird to me. But, I digress, I don't want this to turn into a huge "Bakker-and-misogyny" thing simply because I've been through the debate too many times and I'm kinda weary of it.

I think he is trying to subvert that one. I haven't spent enough time with Disciple to offer an cogent argument but I'm working on it.

The way I see it, FB, people with schticks tend to stick with them; I respect Bakker because I never expect him to use his talent to simply entertain us.

As for the weariness? Trying to convince people to consider alternatives to what they resolutely believe is basically fruitless. That doesn't mean to me that I shouldn't stop trying to reach people.

Elaborate?

Just because Bakker intended it to be quick and painless to write and to sell doesn't mean it lacks depth. I expect Bakker stuck to his mode of operation, figured out the skeletal commons of detective fiction and then worked to play with that somehow while communicating to a certain demographic (Canadians first and foremost, or North Americans - though again, native stylistic colloquialisms are such a part of our we express ourselves and will always be disorienting for people who don't share them).

ETA: Started to read Neuropath today as well, actually got about half-way through. It's...interesting. Not sure how I feel about it quite yet, I'll post my thoughts when I'm done though.

Sweet.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 02:03:24 am by Madness »
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2014, 03:18:15 am »
I think the misogyny is probably something you can always find if you're looking for it... Or maybe I'm just ignorant. Either way, can't say I noticed anything out of the ordinary with DotD. Though that's probably all I'll say about it, since I've read one too many arguments about the topic, and it never goes anywhere but in circles.
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2014, 05:53:09 am »
I think the misogyny is probably something you can always find if you're looking for it... Or maybe I'm just ignorant. Either way, can't say I noticed anything out of the ordinary with DotD. Though that's probably all I'll say about it, since I've read one too many arguments about the topic, and it never goes anywhere but in circles.

I don't think you're ignorant, and I definitely agree that if you're looking for something in particular, there's a good chance you'll find evidence of it (however scant) that confirms your inclination. That being said, I don't think that everyone who finds a notable tinge of sexism in Bakker's work is simply succumbing to some mass delusion by popular interpretation. Bakker is literally among my top three favorite authors of all time, but the dude still ain't perfect. I honestly think he just has an unfortunate blind-spot when it comes to his renditions of women (and the thoughts of men regarding women) in his writing. I would LOVE to be proven wrong in regards to TSA, but as it stands thus far, the series is painfully lacking in female characters that don't feel inadvertently sexist. It's almost cringe-worthy to me, honestly. He has so many opportunities to introduce an important, non-sexualized female figure, and never -- not once -- does he take advantage of it. It's pretty much the only major gripe I have with the series. Again, I don't think Bakker is a genuine woman-hating misogynist. I just think it's a quirk with his writing that happens to pop up. And, while there may be some "feminist twist" to TSA, it's a little hard to buy it as some carefully calculated plan when the exact same stuff pops up in a completely separate work (and one in a genre that's also notorious for misogyny, yet where he's supposedly intentionally subverting genre tropes).

Ironically, reading Neuropath, I actually find it pleasantly devoid of the kind of murky sexism that seems to seep into his other stuff (though, again, both of the major female characters in the book are heavily sexualized). So, certainly everyone has their own brand or interpretation of what truly qualifies as "misogyny", but to assert that it's all just some group-thought confirmation bias is a little silly to me.

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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2014, 08:29:04 am »
I do not see the problem with how he portrays women. It is fiction. If you take that personally, and you are offended in
any way, that is your problem, not his. I seriously do not understand why people can be offended be a story set in
a fantasy world. Maybe he wants to portray women in that way. I have never once seen the problem with that. What Bakker really think of women is no ones business but his. Frankly no one knows, and no one should care. His fiction is
what it is, namely fiction. If people are offended by how he portrays women, they should probably look somewhere else
than in the shelves where you find dark fantasy. Being politically correct just to please women seems wrong to me.

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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2014, 11:38:07 am »
I do not see the problem with how he portrays women. It is fiction. If you take that personally, and you are offended in
any way, that is your problem, not his. I seriously do not understand why people can be offended be a story set in
a fantasy world. Maybe he wants to portray women in that way. I have never once seen the problem with that. What Bakker really think of women is no ones business but his. Frankly no one knows, and no one should care. His fiction is
what it is, namely fiction. If people are offended by how he portrays women, they should probably look somewhere else
than in the shelves where you find dark fantasy. Being politically correct just to please women seems wrong to me.

Lol, well, that probably just means you're prejudiced, Royce ;).

But ultimately, I think Bakker has to have something up his sleeve or else his writing is spreading conceptions of bigotry - which would make him just about the most subversive sexist I've never heard of.

I think the misogyny is probably something you can always find if you're looking for it... Or maybe I'm just ignorant. Either way, can't say I noticed anything out of the ordinary with DotD. Though that's probably all I'll say about it, since I've read one too many arguments about the topic, and it never goes anywhere but in circles.

I think the misogyny is probably something you can always find if you're looking for it... Or maybe I'm just ignorant. Either way, can't say I noticed anything out of the ordinary with DotD. Though that's probably all I'll say about it, since I've read one too many arguments about the topic, and it never goes anywhere but in circles.

I don't think you're ignorant, and I definitely agree that if you're looking for something in particular, there's a good chance you'll find evidence of it (however scant) that confirms your inclination. That being said, I don't think that everyone who finds a notable tinge of sexism in Bakker's work is simply succumbing to some mass delusion by popular interpretation.

It just seems so strange to me that everyone who recognizes it, recognizes it without exception. I partook in only one Bakker & Women thread ever (though, I've read them all) and I read a handful of essays by thinkers analyzing feminist thought and literature for the thread and happened to be in a really special offering at school and read through a hundred opinions on that forum, where I think two or three people notably went to bat with me. In the former two, there was a large amount of discussion surrounding what constitutes criteria. In the latter, not so much... in general terms anyhow. There's plenty of analogies and examples.

Bakker is literally among my top three favorite authors of all time, but the dude still ain't perfect. I honestly think he just has an unfortunate blind-spot when it comes to his renditions of women (and the thoughts of men regarding women) in his writing. I would LOVE to be proven wrong in regards to TSA, but as it stands thus far, the series is painfully lacking in female characters that don't feel inadvertently sexist. It's almost cringe-worthy to me, honestly. He has so many opportunities to introduce an important, non-sexualized female figure, and never -- not once -- does he take advantage of it. It's pretty much the only major gripe I have with the series. Again, I don't think Bakker is a genuine woman-hating misogynist. I just think it's a quirk with his writing that happens to pop up. And, while there may be some "feminist twist" to TSA, it's a little hard to buy it as some carefully calculated plan when the exact same stuff pops up in a completely separate work (and one in a genre that's also notorious for misogyny, yet where he's supposedly intentionally subverting genre tropes).

I've always thought that Bakker User had it right on about doing the work for the other side of the argument and I happen to be genuinely curious.

To start off, I don't think any of it is inadvertent. I understand what you might be imply about some subtle inadvertence but too much of it is overt, whatever it is, to be subtle.

You seem to recognize it as it is but you've provided us with only one description of how to recognize a less damaging gendered narrative. Well, two. You imply that what we might call 'positive dissonance' is a better way to fight prejudice in our world than 'overt representation.' But you explicitly suggest that a "non-sexualized female figure" is what is called for.

Either way, it's not enough.

Wracking my brain, I can only think of a couple criteria that were generated in the Westeros threads (and mind, I haven't read them all in awhile.)

I figure my own offerings might miss the mark but then I know I'm guilty of being a shit person to people. However, I'll wait for your thoughts, FB (or anyone else), because mine are jumbled. Also, while I don't think a thread here could ever devolve into what occurs at Westeros, you are really half this conversation right now (out of four of us voicing an argument).

Ironically, reading Neuropath, I actually find it pleasantly devoid of the kind of murky sexism that seems to seep into his other stuff (though, again, both of the major female characters in the book are heavily sexualized). So, certainly everyone has their own brand or interpretation of what truly qualifies as "misogyny", but to assert that it's all just some group-thought confirmation bias is a little silly to me.

Lol - I didn't think my opinion was so shallow? A large number of people contribute to the conception that gender prejudice "is what is it," especially in this case, fiction, yet are not consistent as a group in defining their thoughts. I can think of plenty more biases or heuristic than something so simple as confirmation bias ;).
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 11:40:17 am by Madness »
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