Conspiracy or paranoia?

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Royce

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« on: January 04, 2014, 03:58:23 pm »
What is your take on this? Do you think they exist? If yes, is there one or many?

People who are into this stuff, are often regarded as nuts or paranoid folks with to much time on their hands. Is that something
you agree with?

What is your favorite conspiracy(if you have one)?

I am in the middle of "The Illuminatus trilogy" and that inspired me to open the door for some discussion around this love/hate subject:)

« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 05:16:58 pm by Royce »

Duskweaver

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« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2014, 09:39:49 pm »
A close relative used to work for one of my country's intelligence services. So I have reason to know that what governments and the media present as the official story is often very far from reality. But most of the things people generally think of when you say "conspiracy theory" are just bunk.

As a general rule, the conspiracies that are some variation on "the CIA/MI6 assassinated a person who officially committed suicide/died in a tragic accident" are the ones I find the most plausible. The ones that propose some grand international, multigenerational conspiracy are rather less so, because the people involved just aren't that clever, frankly.

The best guide is probably to work out the minimum number of people that would be required to know about the conspiracy in order to make it work. If the answer is more than a handful, you're stretching credulity.

Assassinations require rather fewer people to know the truth than you'd think, though. Because you subcontract the initial hit to some random thugs, then have a second team (usually your true professionals) eliminate them. Obviously, you don't tell the second team why the first team have to be removed, and once they've done their work, nobody other than you is left alive who knows that the original subject was assassinated.

As the old saying goes: "Two people can keep a secret... if one of them is dead."
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Madness

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« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2014, 01:52:01 pm »
And worse yet are that those small pockets of secrecy like Duskweaver describes are distributed exponentially across one of the most (the most) unaccountable black operations hierarchy in history. Too many people, making too many decisions about what constitutes extreme threat.

It's probably just a terrible version of spy vs. spy out there, with threats being other undercover operates from different organizational tentacles.

Lol - sometime, I'll regale you, Royce.

I like possibility and imagining the craziest extremes used to be a game of mine for some time. Astound people with alternative "knowledge." Most conspiracies are either exactly the devious ploys they conspire to be or just the super-complex tripping over each other humans do.

As the old saying goes: "Two people can keep a secret... if one of them is dead."

That was attributed to Benjamin Franklin, in The 33 Strategies of War by Robert Greene, which I just finished a week ago: "Three people can keep a secret... if one of them is dead."
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Royce

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« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2014, 07:19:28 pm »
Quote
A close relative used to work for one of my country's intelligence services. So I have reason to know that what governments and the media present as the official story is often very far from reality. But most of the things people generally think of when you say "conspiracy theory" are just bunk.

This is where I am at too. The famous JFK assassination is really confusing. Oswald killed, Ruby killed, Cubans, Russians, mafia and lots of other distractions. Obviously something other than the official story happened. A very attractive conspiracy theory:)

I was very fascinated by conspiracies about 10-12 years ago. I was so fed up with lying politicians, equally lying and annoying mass media, combined with the events at 9/11 and the Iraq war. So I nosedived in the opposite direction, falling right into the lap of the illuminati, annunaki aliens, masons, rosicrucians, the knight templars and so on. After a while I almost went nuts. One theory crazier than the other, and it just went deeper and deeper. Finally I climbed up to the surface again, and never looked back. It is frightening
when you realize first hand how easily humans can be fooled into believing almost anything. So I accepted that these theories are just as (un)likely as the official stories out there. what are we left with then? A crazy and fascinating
world full of contradictions and confusion.



Anyway, my favorite must be the "no planers". These guys says there were no planes hitting WTC. Just planted nukes, no planes.
The media fabricated the footage of the planes flying into the buildings. Plausible? I think not:) Come on, no fucking planes??

« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 08:33:54 pm by Royce »

Duskweaver

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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2014, 11:16:21 am »
one of the most (the most) unaccountable black operations hierarchy in history. Too many people, making too many decisions about what constitutes extreme threat.
The sad thing is that this is probably the only way it can work. And forget oversight by elected representatives. There are some (many) things that have to be kept secret even (or especially) from them.

The only meaningful safeguard is to ensure, as far as possible, that the nuttiest ideologues are kept far away from the decision-making positions. The CIA has, of course, historically been really, really bad at that. MI6 seems to have done rather better at it (although that may just be my pro-UK/anti-US bias).

Quote
That was attributed to Benjamin Franklin
It certainly predates him. The 16th century writer George Cavendish (in his Thomas Wolsey, Late Cardinall, his Lyffe and Deathe) attributed a version (with slightly different wording) to Henry VIII.

Anyway, my favorite must be the "no planers". These guys says there were no planes hitting WTC. Just planted nukes, no planes.
The media fabricated the footage of the planes flying into the buildings. Plausible? I think not:) Come on, no fucking planes??
*Nods* It fails on two fronts. First, it would require a vast number of people to be in on the con. Second, it's just ridiculously more complicated and difficult to pull off than necessary. Inducing a bunch of religious fundamentalist whackadoos to steal a couple of planes and fly them into buildings is orders of magnitude simpler and easier than what the No Planers (and most other 9/11 Truthers) claim happened.

EDIT: This seems appropriate here.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 11:38:12 am by Duskweaver »
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Madness

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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2014, 01:22:12 pm »
one of the most (the most) unaccountable black operations hierarchy in history. Too many people, making too many decisions about what constitutes extreme threat.
The sad thing is that this is probably the only way it can work. And forget oversight by elected representatives. There are some (many) things that have to be kept secret even (or especially) from them.

The only meaningful safeguard is to ensure, as far as possible, that the nuttiest ideologues are kept far away from the decision-making positions. The CIA has, of course, historically been really, really bad at that. MI6 seems to have done rather better at it (although that may just be my pro-UK/anti-US bias).

Lol - and truth. I think there's some fundamental construction errors though - obviously, it seems to me, we should be working to take into account human heuristic and bias when we create our hierarchical conceptual structures.

Quote
That was attributed to Benjamin Franklin
It certainly predates him. The 16th century writer George Cavendish (in his Thomas Wolsey, Late Cardinall, his Lyffe and Deathe) attributed a version (with slightly different wording) to Henry VIII.

Very cool. It seems like one of those undying pieces of wisdom. But that means that two of us three are in trouble from our co-conspirators here ;).

Anyway, my favorite must be the "no planers". These guys says there were no planes hitting WTC. Just planted nukes, no planes.
The media fabricated the footage of the planes flying into the buildings. Plausible? I think not:) Come on, no fucking planes??
*Nods* It fails on two fronts. First, it would require a vast number of people to be in on the con. Second, it's just ridiculously more complicated and difficult to pull off than necessary. Inducing a bunch of religious fundamentalist whackadoos to steal a couple of planes and fly them into buildings is orders of magnitude simpler and easier than what the No Planers (and most other 9/11 Truthers) claim happened.

In the hope of being fair and balanced, there were instanced where news outlets in the UK started reporting building 7 collapsed before it did or, more topical, other outlets showing clips of "plane one hitting" and there is no plane in the clip.

And, personally, I don't actually think that controlled demolition is that far-fetched compared to the official story of "fire."

EDIT: This seems appropriate here.

Wow. I gave a speech in Grade 10 American History on Conspiracy Theories and MK Ultra was one of the first I went over. Also, the Tuskegee is fucking crazy awful. Some people need to give their moral compasses a smack.
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Royce

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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2014, 11:09:17 pm »
Quote
And, personally, I don't actually think that controlled demolition is that far-fetched compared to the official story of "fire."

Yeah, what is up with that building 7 anyway? That is super strange, just collapsing like that.
When you see videos of controlled demolition, and then see WTC collapse, you have to be kind of blind not to see that
it looks kind of similar:) But I am not an architect or into explosives, so my evidence lies in shaggy youtube videos and
Alex Jones:) One expert/scientist says this and another something else, so who do you believe?

Royce

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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2014, 10:44:47 am »
Maybe the system itself creates a lot of paranoia, leaving in its wake paranoid citizens?

Here is a passage from this fantastic Illuminatus book:)

"What would you think of a man who not only kept an arsenal in his home, but was collecting at enormous
financial sacrifice a second arsenal to protect the first one? What would you say if this man so frightened
his neighbors that they in turn were collecting weapons to protect themselves from him? What if this man
spent ten times as much money on his expensive weapons as he did on the education of his children? What
if one of his children criticized his hobby and he called that child a traitor and a bum and disowned it? And he
took another child who had obeyed him faithfully and armed that child and sent it out into the world to attack
neighbors? What would you say about a man who introduces poisons into the water he drinks and the air he
breathes? What if this man not only is feuding with the people on his block but involves himself in the quarrels
of others in distant parts of the city and even in the suburbs? Such a man would clearly be a paranoid
schizophrenic, with homicidal tendencies. This is the man who should be on trial, though under our modern,
enlightened system of jurisprudence we would attempt to cure and rehabilitate him rather than merely punish."
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 10:47:06 am by Royce »

Madness

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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2014, 12:37:27 pm »
One expert/scientist says this and another something else, so who do you believe?

Indeed. There's architects both ways, I'd guess. Someone in the Conspiracy Squad thought destroying a bunch of papers in WTC 7 was a sellable idea.

Welcome to the world of synchronicity. It is in this world, at whatever threshold of coincidence, a special narrative emerges.

And to me, my threshold of coincidence is somewhere around the "running the same" war-games; I don't know what the frequency of "ok, girls and boys, today we're pretending terrorists are capturing planes to use as bombs" but the statistical chances minimize with every correspondence.

People probably have a pretty low threshold for meaningful coincidences. As evident by the sheer variation of conspiracy theories, I've been exposed to in my life.

Maybe the system itself creates a lot of paranoia, leaving in its wake paranoid citizens?

Here is a passage from this fantastic Illuminatus book:)

Lol, even the lowest of hierarchies have wisdom to offer, Royce. They need not even realize what they're saying.

Personally, my issue is their lack of any attempt at a coordinated, community action. They do give symposiums, etc, but they aren't putting themselves out there, they're surrounding themselves with people who are mostly favourable then neutral towards their system of thought.

Yes, the system itself inherently creates a lot of paranoids but...

Can you solely describe one group of <insert conspiracy organization> that can possible mediate all other circumstances of why we've allowed a sort of tribal regression to set into the Western Empire? I mean, I'm sure such organizations would want to actively instill that kind of plebletariot but we could all go a long way to stop being paranoid and alone by adopting an actual sense of community, rather than the illusion of one.
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Royce

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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2014, 01:56:53 pm »
Quote
Can you solely describe one group of <insert conspiracy organization> that can possible mediate all other circumstances of why we've allowed a sort of tribal regression to set into the Western Empire? I mean, I'm sure such organizations would want to actively instill that kind of plebletariot but we could all go a long way to stop being paranoid and alone by adopting an actual sense of community, rather than the illusion of one.

No I can not(If I could I would be DEAD!:))

It is impossible to "control" everything. No one knows what will happen from one moment to the next. I do think that
there are plenty of people trying though.

To conspire is a very natural thing,we all do it. We conspire against our parents,our friends,girlfriends and so on.
We do it to achieve something we would rather not say directly to people. I have no problem to accept that this occurs
on a grander scale put into system, by using all kinds of authorities.

I do not believe that this is a one horse race, where there are "evil" people all over the place trying to control every
little thing to achieve their goals, whatever they are. There are just as many who want the opposite(I hope), so as you say it is up to us to not be paranoid.

Duskweaver

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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2014, 02:42:09 pm »
"What would you think of a man..."
...who doesn't understand the differences between states and individuals? ...who relies on analogies stretched to the point of absurdity to make his arguments? :P

I liked the Illuminatus trilogy as entertainment. It was a fun read. I didn't find it especially thought-provoking or intellectually stimulating, though.

I do agree that there are those who stand to benefit from encouraging the masses to be permanently paranoid. As well as ensuring there are plenty of truly nutty conspiracy theories around to distract from and discredit the few that might just possibly have some truth to them.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Royce

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« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2014, 03:31:38 pm »
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...who doesn't understand the differences between states and individuals? ...who relies on analogies stretched to the point of absurdity to make his arguments? :P

Lol. The "state" is just an abstract concept made up by individuals. This is not my argument anyway.
Maybe you noticed the question mark in the first sentence in that post? It was there so you could express your
opinion on that passage:)

Quote
I liked the Illuminatus trilogy as entertainment. It was a fun read. I didn't find it especially thought-provoking or intellectually stimulating, though.

I agree, very entertaining. I do not think they meant it to be very thought provoking, although that depends on the
reader of course.They present one idea, just to discredit it 10 pages later, they do not seem to take any paricular
stance either way. I have only read half of it yet, so that may change though.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 08:10:08 pm by Royce »

Inraus Ghost

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« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2014, 04:39:23 am »
My "favorite" has to be the annunaki. A planet in an orbit like a comet that takes it into the inner solar system once every 5000 years that can somehow support life beyond the microscopic. And it is undetectable. The idea people can find that believable is priceless.

Somnambulist

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« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2014, 04:50:17 am »
My "favorite" has to be the annunaki. A planet in an orbit like a comet that takes it into the inner solar system once every 5000 years that can somehow support life beyond the microscopic. And it is undetectable. The idea people can find that believable is priceless.

But it's all the gold suspended in the atmosphere that makes it possible!  Totally believable...  where's the sarcasm face? ::)  Roll eyes will have to do
No whistling on the slog!

Royce

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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2014, 11:38:26 am »
Not any worse than anything else really. That a male god with beard hovers above us, showering us with gifts of forgiveness and love, and at the same time judges you and fill your being with hate, is just as priceless:)