Comparable Earth Races in Earwa

  • 18 Replies
  • 6640 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2014, 10:19:57 pm »
Lol, Pansa. I still want to read up on them.

But while I love Kay and Bakker, the issue remains,  is taking the historical record of Earth civilizations and adopting them for fictional purposes derivative and a copout?  Or does it give us something to identify with and enrich our reading?  My feelings on this change every other week.  God, I'm such an equivocator...  I'd just like to reiterate that my OP was in regards to my observations of other readers as racially and culturally coding the Inrithi as European Christians where I think the text doesn't support that blanked correlation.  It seems we've gone on a bit of a tanget, but a tangent about historical appropriation in fiction is always an excellent tangent!

Tangenting tangents will tangent here. They are the rich lifeblood of this noosphere.

To the bold, there's nothing wrong with calling everyone out here on perceived biases - so long as you're prepared to defend yourself. I think it's an innate virtue of this being a Bakker fanforum.

I'm not sure I suggested any Caucasians for Ketyai, though I might have supported some such choices. But I myself am ignorant of thespians in other cultures, mostly because I don't watch much film, or specifically international films - and exist near the heart of the Western Empire.

Also, Bakker could very well be (and arguably is) mashing together datum of cultures to amalgamate novelty?

But I might have misread you?
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Hirtius/Pansa

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Momurai
  • *****
  • Posts: 141
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2014, 01:36:11 am »
To Madness:  In hindsight, that emboldened sentence does sound very flippant and unfair.  So allow me to backtrack lol.  For my reading, I have to see the nations of Earwa as multicultural amalgamations as it is my key to not getting hung up on my caveats about Kay(and Bakker sometimes too) that it seems like they are sometimes derivative of history.  I see elements of the Chinese Mantle of Heaven in regards to the Imperial Mantle of the Nansurium.  The naming of conventions of The Three Seas themselves evoke Chinese patronymic ideals and customs with the family name preceding the given.  Perennial conflict which Jurchen and Manchu peoples in their northwestern borders are echoed in the Nansur conflicts with the Scylvendi.  The conversion and integration of the Norsirai nations into the Inrithi military reminds me of the Seljuk Turks, a distinct racial and cultural identity, conquering parts of the Arab Caliphate and then just as quickly converting to Islam and then becoming an integral part of the militaries of the Medieval Islamic world.  That ambiguity of the the exact descriptions, that negative space where Bakker allows us to fill in the blanks, of these cultures and races is an absolute playground for me to imagine various configuration for what a Kyranean column looks like or what have you.   An excellent example of this multicultural reading is Somnambulist's art for Lord Kosoter.  A fantastical blend of an Achaemenid helm and Hellenistic armor with a Kopis sword. 

 Now we come to kernel of the issue.  I'm starting to feel frustration when many people on these forums seem to embrace the closest historical analogies that they are familiar with, namely he Nansur/Greek Kian/Saracens and all the other Inrithi nations as belonging to  European Christian nations.  I'm not frustrated at people getting a different reading than myself. I suppose,  I genuinely feel that it is detrimental to the series for us to to imagine the history of the First Crusades as the "a priori" that we are to impose on The Three Seas in order to be more comfortable and complacent rather than imagine wholly different cultures and races. 

As to the casting of various characters.  Pssssssh.  I'm in the same boat as you Madness, not really familiar with many actors and actress beyond the anglosphere of the film industry.  I suppose there should an absolute ton of actors and actress in Bollywood that speak impeccable English that would be superb for playing Ketyai characters in a hypothetical Second Apocalypse film series.  Most people opined Gary Oldman for Akka and there was some support for Joseph Gordon Levitt for Proyas after that IMDB fan casting list made the rounds.  I had gotten all these novels from the library so I don't have them on hand, but from what I can remember, as you mentioned Madness, Akka is a darker Ketyai who I believe is stated specially as being "dark skinned" by Mimara at some point in WLW.  I know that Proyas is described as "swarthy" and "dusky skinned" by Cnaiur when Proyas confronts Kellhus about manipulating Saubon into prematurely marching against Skaurus.  I don't really know.  Madness, I feel like I'll take your original advice and plant my flag in the Historical Allusions thread.  I think I could write a dissertation on Aurang and a certain Mughal Emperor who is undoubtedly his namesake.   :)

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2014, 02:32:31 am »
Now we come to kernel of the issue.  I'm starting to feel frustration when many people on these forums seem to embrace the closest historical analogies that they are familiar with, namely he Nansur/Greek Kian/Saracens and all the other Inrithi nations as belonging to  European Christian nations.

Lol - first off: you have a wealth of knowledge and I am envious. I also enjoy your alternative historical analogues. I think this may be the crux of your discomfort (and it's unfortunate that this place hasn't neared its full potential). There are simply so few of us here posting.

I can also guarantee that only few here might match the breadth of your knowledge. And unfortunately it is a documented bias that people will "embrace the closest familiar analogy" (availability heuristic) :). Thankfully, you've arrived and there are others both here and who will reveal themselves eventually that will partake. The rich conversation you so desire will happen - and many of us will learn much from it when it does.

Also, you may enjoy What you didn't like in the series or what it lacks?/Excessive Segue of Calvalry.

As to the casting of various characters.  Pssssssh.  I'm in the same boat as you Madness, not really familiar with many actors and actress beyond the anglosphere of the film industry.  I suppose there should an absolute ton of actors and actress in Bollywood that speak impeccable English that would be superb for playing Ketyai characters in a hypothetical Second Apocalypse film series.  Most people opined Gary Oldman for Akka and there was some support for Joseph Gordon Levitt for Proyas after that IMDB fan casting list made the rounds. I had gotten all these novels from the library so I don't have them on hand, but from what I can remember, as you mentioned Madness, Akka is a darker Ketyai who I believe is stated specially as being "dark skinned" by Mimara at some point in WLW.  I know that Proyas is described as "swarthy" and "dusky skinned" by Cnaiur when Proyas confronts Kellhus about manipulating Saubon into prematurely marching against Skaurus.  I don't really know.  Madness, I feel like I'll take your original advice and plant my flag in the Historical Allusions thread.  I think I could write a dissertation on Aurang and a certain Mughal Emperor who is undoubtedly his namesake.   :)

I feel like there also some posts in the film thread here that suggested a variety of thespian ethnicities. But definitely noteworty notation :).

Uh... to the bold, you should write that. And many more of/all of your thoughts on whatever subjects you wish ;).

After all... as correlations abound, the question always becomes...

How much do you know, Bakker?

WHAT DO YOU SEE?
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Alia

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Of The Knife
  • Posts: 249
    • View Profile
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2014, 03:58:59 pm »
And now, a fun fact. I'm not certain whether it's the best thread, but since it's about correlations - when I read PoN, whenever I came upon the name Carythusal, I would _always_ read it as Carsultyal, that is the city of sorcerers from Karl Wagner's "Kane" books.
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake