Kellhus and Nau Cayuti

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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2014, 07:45:04 pm »
@ SOA - I like the idea of the carapace as a spirit trap.  Like you said, no ciphrangs, no damnation.  Souls find oblivion in the now empty outside?  It seems to fit with the some other bits: what kellhus said he found in the outside (god broken into a million pieces) and what old moe says at the end of TTT (the god sleeps our purpose is to awaken him).  If Mog is all of the spirits bound in one, then it is all the fragments of god combined, it awakes, its 'eyes' open and it sees that it needs to be seen.  LOL, idk.  :)

Inchoroi = Ghost Busters

The God of Gods already watches itself through the eyes of every souled creature in Earwa. It is a paradoxical creature, it can watch itself so it knows itself infinitely. Thus it defines itself which is another paradox. The Solitary God has no contact with the world so it lacks identity and fits with the sleeping God idea. Following this reasoning, the No-God could be the imprisoned consciousness of the Solitary God, but then why can it control soulless creatures that aren't a part of its being? Btw, i believe that the Solitary God isn't just the sum of souls, it's also the sum of those souls relations, and the properties of those relations.

Madness

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« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2014, 02:19:40 pm »
I will try to make a more serious post, attempting to explain parts of my reasoning. I will also try to separate what i actually think is probable from the crackpot theories i do for fun.

Cheers.

Why had Aka to learn now about Nau-Cayuti? He seems to follow his story from conception to "death", breaking every rule about the dreams in the process. It's not about the Heron spear, the narrative surpasses that point and goes on to place him in Golgoterath at the end of his life. And while we don't know why it took the Consult/Inchies so long to build the No God the first time, the second time should be faster. They have the know how, the carapace and no one believes they exist. They seem to be waiting for something.

The most recent point we have from Nau-Cayuti's Dream-life, Shauriatas is literally asking Nau-Cayuti about the Heron Spear. Which would imply that when Shauriatas finds out from Nau-Cayuti, Achamian will know the real world location, and why/if the Consult haven't found it.

Also, there is an inverse relationship between Mekertrig/Shauriatas' knowledge of the Tekne to Aurang/Aurax... the first time around, the No-God resulted from a combination of sorcery/Tekne but Aurang/Aurax brought the Tekne half of the knowledge to the table. So Shauriatas probably has had to spend much, much longer, reverse engineering what they've done to learn Aurang/Aurax portions.

The logical leap is that if you want to change the way God works, you have to subvert an important part of him. The number of souls is a factor, but so is the density. Thus, creating the No God using souls makes sense and a soul like Nau-Cayuti's should be considered a prize. Since he was actually there at Golgoterath at that time, it's not that far fetched to assume he was indeed used to that effect.

We don't know when the Dream in Ch. 1 takes place? And Nau-Cayuti was leading the human resistance... Shauriatas and Consult have just captured him... why do we have to project more onto this prize commentary, specifically?

In any case, if God's outside is closed to the world, Nau-Cayuti can't be there. So he has to be somewhere else. It's not such a big of a leap to assume he is inside the No God. The timing fits, but there is a problem as you've pointed out:

Or the fact that you haven't really explained satisfactorily how/if the No-God actually stops the Gods and Souls Outside from affecting the World?

The Celmomian prophesy doesn't make sense.

...

There is also the matter of the source of the prophesy. Seswatha, if it actually is his heart that the mandate uses for the dreams is completely unreliable. We just can't take his purpose at face value, not with damnation hanging above his neck like an axe. It's interesting to note that real or not, the Seswatha whose heart seeds the dreams has in this way become immortal, avoiding damnation. I don't believe in coincidences ;). On the other hand, the Consult seems to also follow a prophesy. The only common factor i can see between the Consult and the Mandate is they both believe there is a prophesy about a person when the world ends. They obviously disagree about who that person actually is, but this common factor seems to indicate that somewhere down the line there is a single origin.

But you've assumed that the False Prophecy is about Mimara specifically, rather than maybe pregnant women in Mimara's line. You also assume that the False Prophecy has to do with the end of the World...

I also believe the baby is important for reasons i've already explained. He might be the harbinger, he might be Nau-Cayuti reborn, he might be something else entirely, i don't really know. The only thing i am certain of is that he is connected to the second apocalypse.

Well... strangely enough, you've seeded your own nerdanel. I'm not sure I agree but I know I've voiced the elsewhere for different reasons.

Mimara's stillborn birth resulting from the Judging Eye will be the only live baby born after the No-God walks again.

So if i say that the story is about the God, trying to understand itself, i am not searching for evidence. It's just a baseless opinion. I am sharing it because i think it's interesting, not because it's necessarily true.

Lol - I don't see how this will save you from having to defend your nerdanels? We, the SA noosphere, are the God of Gods of your analogy trying to solve TSA.

Anyway, how do you know the outside is shut? There is no indication of this.

+1

EDIT:
I do agree that there might be different prophesies that stem from the same beginning, and even end in the same way but seen from different vatage points. The Inchoroi state that they must keep close tabs on all of the prophesies, even the false ones. I think this is said in a way that points to Mimara being some link to one of the False, but I don't think that is necessarily the case. I also believe there is room for many prophesies, Inchoroi, human and Nonmen, that we don't yet know about.

+1 many more prophecies.

One more note: You might have refered to Madness as "you all" and/or "they", and Madness reffered to himself as "us". Either yall are crazy of your forget that we can all speak for ourselves :). Other of the forum have agency here as well!

Do they Wilshire? When I say we I'm usually referring to arguments or conceptions of speculations that I know aren't mine alone and are shared by others here. Or sometimes I refer to we as readers, or the forum as a whole... a couple ways, I guess, really.

EDIT:
It appears that I have already posted some of the same stuff as Madness, almost word for word, before I read his comment. Sorry if I repeat stuff. Maybe he was referring to me when he said we? (get out of my head)

Lol - you want to be Norton or Pitt?

There are some indications that the world is shut (i've gathered them in my previous post) but you have a point that they are in no way irrefutable. What used to seal the deal for me was the absence of new births, but Madness's and your input made me see it from a different perspective. I've always thought that the No God is what prevents damnation by sealing the world, but maybe it has a different function. Since we know that the Inchoroi strive to reduce the population to 144k in every world they grace with their presence, we could assume that this is the key to seal the world from the outside and the No God is there to facilitate the process. While the Consult army does a fine job towards that goal, new births could potentially become a problem, so the No God might be just a way to screw Yatwer. This doesn't fit with its name though, and i am OCD about those kind of things. Maybe Scott didn't like the name No-Birth :P.

I really don't know that we should trust this 144,000 notation. Where the hell did the Inchoroi even get that from? Maybe that's what they are doing wrong (though, I think we can all safely assume that Earwa is the connection the Outside).

The Anasurimbor never physically left, but they retreated from the world, i see this as a metaphor that one of the line will reemerge with real agency at the end of the world.

...

Nau-Cayuti isn't a passive presence in the vision, he is an active participant, it's him that talks to Celmomas about the harbinger. Of course we could assume it's just wishful thinking, but the same goes for the visage of the Gods.

You know, you're forgetting your own Mimara speculation here. Technically, if she is Anasurimbor through Esmenet's matrilineal line, then the Anasurimbor never even retreated.

Also, what about the Dream where young Nau-Cayuti has learned Mimara's name from Seswatha sleeping...?

Regarding Mimara guessing  correctly about the skin spy:

I think some people, myself included, have been conditioned to look far to closely, to travel too deeply down the rabbit hole. I think it more likely that Mimara's quote there was from the Author to the Reader, just some simple foreshadowing, rather than some crazy prophecy-come-true or an indication of some deep insight into TDTCB. I'm not sure about the timeline here, but have we yet received any other indication that he has been replaced? (references to his inhuman reaction speed, etc.)?

Sure, it may very well be that. But the same goes for her comment that Aka's and Esmi's baby was meant to happen. If Scott did it once, why not do it again ;)?

Or has he done it at all?

Believe me its not your fault that I don't get it.

+1 - I'm not big on the abstract metaphysics of our world even ;).

I was mostly joking ;)

No joking on the slog.

[EDIT]

I was re reading the part with Mimara's chorae near the end of the JE and i remembered why i thought Mimara knows things she shouldn't. Here is the proof:

Quote
She finds herself almost whispering in his ear. "Akka. Listen to me carefully. You remember what you said? About this place... blurring... into the Outside?"
 
"Yes. The treachery... The betrayal that led to its fall..."
 
"No. That's not it. It's this place. This very room! It's what they did—the Nonmen of Cil-Aujas... It's what they did to their human slaves!"
 
Generations bred for the sunless mines. Used up. Cast away like moaning rubbish. Ten thousand years of sightless torment.
 
She knows this... But how?
 
"What? What do you mean?" He grimaces in pain and irritation.

This happens when the ghost of the Non-Man King first appears.

Her subliminally knowing that Soma is a skin-spy is a way different kind of knowing something she shouldn't than knowing where a Topoi originates, which seems definitely like it would be in the Judging Eye's ken.

Mimara's perspective throughout Cil Aujis sees things she shouldn't be able to see, both literally out of body experiences and the metaphysical seeing as you mention.

Please, elaborate.

Good catch, Alia. That is a line I only noticed after reading WLW. But Esmenet notes that Sarcellus smells of myrrh, I believe, in TDTCB.

Not only that. I did a quick search and the smell of myrrh is also present at Inrau's death and at Esmenet's meeting with Synthese (and that's the one scene that I remembered the most).

I'm sure Bakker's laced them errywhere :).

@ SOA - I like the idea of the carapace as a spirit trap.  Like you said, no ciphrangs, no damnation.  Souls find oblivion in the now empty outside?  It seems to fit with the some other bits: what kellhus said he found in the outside (god broken into a million pieces) and what old moe says at the end of TTT (the god sleeps our purpose is to awaken him).  If Mog is all of the spirits bound in one, then it is all the fragments of god combined, it awakes, its 'eyes' open and it sees that it needs to be seen.  LOL, idk.  :)

Inchoroi = Ghost Busters

The God of Gods already watches itself through the eyes of every souled creature in Earwa. It is a paradoxical creature, it can watch itself so it knows itself infinitely. Thus it defines itself which is another paradox. The Solitary God has no contact with the world so it lacks identity and fits with the sleeping God idea. Following this reasoning, the No-God could be the imprisoned consciousness of the Solitary God, but then why can it control soulless creatures that aren't a part of its being? Btw, i believe that the Solitary God isn't just the sum of souls, it's also the sum of those souls relations, and the properties of those relations.

Really wish FB was here for you. You'll find his posts. You two read almost identical sometimes.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 02:23:24 pm by Madness »
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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2014, 05:29:44 pm »
The most recent point we have from Nau-Cayuti's Dream-life, Shauriatas is literally asking Nau-Cayuti about the Heron Spear. Which would imply that when Shauriatas finds out from Nau-Cayuti, Achamian will know the real world location, and why/if the Consult haven't found it.

Also, there is an inverse relationship between Mekertrig/Shauriatas' knowledge of the Tekne to Aurang/Aurax... the first time around, the No-God resulted from a combination of sorcery/Tekne but Aurang/Aurax brought the Tekne half of the knowledge to the table. So Shauriatas probably has had to spend much, much longer, reverse engineering what they've done to learn Aurang/Aurax portions.

It's simply impossible for Nau-Cayuti to know anything useful about the Heron Spear at this time. The Heron Spear went missing when he was already dead or somewhere else. The persons closest to it at the time were Anaxophus V and Seswatha.

The composition of the Consult has remained largely the same for the past 3000 years. The Inchoroi twins, the Mangaeka immortals and the Nonmen erratics. So i don't see how they would have to reverse engineer anything, unless you imply that the Inchoroi also loose their memories due to their agelessness, which is something i am not at all convinced with.

We don't know when the Dream in Ch. 1 takes place? And Nau-Cayuti was leading the human resistance... Shauriatas and Consult have just captured him... why do we have to project more onto this prize commentary, specifically?

I just used the same word, Nau-Cayuti is a world soul, he was a very important part of history, he is a bigger part of God than the common mortal.

But you've assumed that the False Prophecy is about Mimara specifically, rather than maybe pregnant women in Mimara's line. You also assume that the False Prophecy has to do with the end of the World...

No, i've assumed there are various prophesies that are just interpretations of the original. When i wrote the original post about the prophesy i falsely remembered that initially the prophesy was given to the reader directly, like the Ishual part in the Intro of the DTCB, but i rechecked it and realized i was mistaken. I am not convinced there is a completely accurate version of the original prophecy, just different variations of it. But there is a common factor that has to do with a certain line. Mimara doesn't have to be the subject of prophecy, belonging to that line is enough for the Consult to keep her in check. The fact that Mimara has the JE is what makes think she may be the fulfillment of the prophesy, her or her child.

And about the End of the world, an apocalypse, depending on how far it reaches can be a complete reset on civilization and beliefs. The world doesn't have to end in a material sense for that part to be correct.

Well... strangely enough, you've seeded your own nerdanel. I'm not sure I agree but I know I've voiced the elsewhere for different reasons.

Mimara's stillborn birth resulting from the Judging Eye will be the only live baby born after the No-God walks again.

I certainly hope you are right, because i fear there will be a more sinister conclusion to this part of the story.

Lol - I don't see how this will save you from having to defend your nerdanels? We, the SA noosphere, are the God of Gods of your analogy trying to solve TSA.

I don't have an issue defending them, back and forth like this stimulates the imagination, enabling us to come up with even more preposterous stuff. I am just pointing out that there is too much ambiguity in the books to allow the formulation of definitive conclusions.

Or the fact that you haven't really explained satisfactorily how/if the No-God actually stops the Gods and Souls Outside from affecting the World?

And that's what i was talking about. I have already pointed out what led me to this assumption. I still think it's probable, but there are also indications that it isn't so. Hopefully we will know when the UC gets released.

I really don't know that we should trust this 144,000 notation. Where the hell did the Inchoroi even get that from? Maybe that's what they are doing wrong (though, I think we can all safely assume that Earwa is the connection the Outside).

You might be right about the true significance of the number, what i find interesting though is that the same number is a part of an Earwan legend ;).

You know, you're forgetting your own Mimara speculation here. Technically, if she is Anasurimbor through Esmenet's matrilineal line, then the Anasurimbor never even retreated.

Also, what about the Dream where young Nau-Cayuti has learned Mimara's name from Seswatha sleeping...?

Of course they had retreated. They were kings, they had the power to shape the future. If Esmenet is indeed a descendant of that line, she is the first to be able to influence events in two thousand years. The same goes for Mimara.

The dreams do that blending with the current time line more than once. It might be Aka's consciousnesses that causes it, it might be Seswatha's, it might even be a short of time bending. This along with the Keelhus/Seswatha conversation are like itches i can't scratch.

+1 - I'm not big on the abstract metaphysics of our world even ;).
I decided to use the human body as a way to help visualize it, i hope the result was accessible.

Her subliminally knowing that Soma is a skin-spy is a way different kind of knowing something she shouldn't than knowing where a Topoi originates, which seems definitely like it would be in the Judging Eye's ken.

One of the central themes of the book is that in Earwa the darkness that comes before isn't just the human subconscious. There is outside influence with its own purpose, and Mimara is connected to the outside through fiber optics :P. The only difference i see between those two cases is that with Soma she didn't have to understand her belief in order to benefit from it, while in the second case she had, so her knowledge couldn't remain in her subconscious. I could produce more insights by Mimara that defy causality but i'd have to re read the JE and the WLW, and right now i don't have the time. There is also little point to it, my initial argument was that since Mimara undeniably has that trait, every one of her comments that seems out of place is suspect.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 05:33:46 pm by SkiesOfAzel »

Madness

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« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2014, 10:55:22 am »
It's simply impossible for Nau-Cayuti to know anything useful about the Heron Spear at this time. The Heron Spear went missing when he was already dead or somewhere else. The persons closest to it at the time were Anaxophus V and Seswatha.

You're mixing up the probable timelines (probable because both the Dreams and the Glossary are suspect). Nau-Cayuti and Seswatha get the Heron Spear back from Golgotterath before Ieva "poisons" Nau-Cayuti and he's taken back to Golgotterath. The Dream from the Ch. 1 excerpt seems to take before the rise of the No-God. The Heron Spear isn't lost til the fall of Tryse where Anaxophus' Knights allegedly gets the Spear and keeps it secret.

So I'm fairly sure that Nau-Cayuti is being interrogated for the location of the Heron Spear that he and Seswatha recently stole from Golgotterath (hence, the line where Aurang says to Nau-Cayuti that none escape Golgotterath, if I remember that right) - and, you know, I really assumed that Nau-Cayuti would crack. Maybe Shauriatas learns nothing from the Prince.

The composition of the Consult has remained largely the same for the past 3000 years. The Inchoroi twins, the Mangaeka immortals and the Nonmen erratics. So i don't see how they would have to reverse engineer anything, unless you imply that the Inchoroi also loose their memories due to their agelessness, which is something i am not at all convinced with.

I'll have to find the quote for you (unless Curethan cares to pop in and do so) but Bakker suggested on ZTS that the Inchoroi are losing knowledge of their past in some capacity that may or may not be similar to the Nonmen.

I just used the same word, Nau-Cayuti is a world soul, he was a very important part of history, he is a bigger part of God than the common mortal.

All truth as we know it... but it's how you use the word to imply your nerdanel that I'm taking issue with?

But you've assumed that the False Prophecy is about Mimara specifically, rather than maybe pregnant women in Mimara's line. You also assume that the False Prophecy has to do with the end of the World...

No, i've assumed there are various prophesies that are just interpretations of the original. When i wrote the original post about the prophesy i falsely remembered that initially the prophesy was given to the reader directly, like the Ishual part in the Intro of the DTCB, but i rechecked it and realized i was mistaken. I am not convinced there is a completely accurate version of the original prophecy, just different variations of it. But there is a common factor that has to do with a certain line. Mimara doesn't have to be the subject of prophecy, belonging to that line is enough for the Consult to keep her in check. The fact that Mimara has the JE is what makes think she may be the fulfillment of the prophesy, her or her child.

And about the End of the world, an apocalypse, depending on how far it reaches can be a complete reset on civilization and beliefs. The world doesn't have to end in a material sense for that part to be correct.

Sorry... I guess I should have laid that out better. You "assume there are various prophesies that are just interpretations of the original." I had realized this and thus it follows that you must also assume that the False Prophecy is about Mimara (who you believe to be an Anasurimbor - a necessary antecedent to the False Prophecy mirroring the first) and you assume that the False Prophecy has to do with the end of the World (metaphorical or otherwise) (the other requisite truth from the Celmomian, what you're calling the original, Prophecy).

I am just pointing out that there is too much ambiguity in the books to allow the formulation of definitive conclusions.

I disagree? Maybe for the formulation of definitive conclusions by one person alone.

Hopefully we will know when the UC gets released.

+1

I really don't know that we should trust this 144,000 notation. Where the hell did the Inchoroi even get that from? Maybe that's what they are doing wrong (though, I think we can all safely assume that Earwa is the connection the Outside).

You might be right about the true significance of the number, what i find interesting though is that the same number is a part of an Earwan legend ;).

I had suggested upthread that it is part of human legend because the Inchoroi version of the Myth of 144,000 has been digested by humans across the histories from their interaction with the Inchoroi.

Of course they had retreated. They were kings, they had the power to shape the future. If Esmenet is indeed a descendant of that line, she is the first to be able to influence events in two thousand years. The same goes for Mimara.

Makes sense.

The dreams do that blending with the current time line more than once. It might be Aka's consciousnesses that causes it, it might be Seswatha's, it might even be a short of time bending. This along with the Keelhus/Seswatha conversation are like itches i can't scratch.

The only other time I can think of is when the No-God calls Achamian by name in TTT? Anymore you know of?

Also, what the about the fact that Achamian Dreams a sleeping Nau-Cayuti's perspective (perhaps, he essentially has the ability to use a soul like Kellhus uses fires with the Seeing-Flame)?

+1 - I'm not big on the abstract metaphysics of our world even ;).

I decided to use the human body as a way to help visualize it, i hope the result was accessible.

Heh... honestly, the metaphysical content just doesn't stoke my fire.

Her subliminally knowing that Soma is a skin-spy is a way different kind of knowing something she shouldn't than knowing where a Topoi originates, which seems definitely like it would be in the Judging Eye's ken.

One of the central themes of the book is that in Earwa the darkness that comes before isn't just the human subconscious. There is outside influence with its own purpose, and Mimara is connected to the outside through fiber optics :P. The only difference i see between those two cases is that with Soma she didn't have to understand her belief in order to benefit from it, while in the second case she had, so her knowledge couldn't remain in her subconscious. I could produce more insights by Mimara that defy causality but i'd have to re read the JE and the WLW, and right now i don't have the time. There is also little point to it, my initial argument was that since Mimara undeniably has that trait, every one of her comments that seems out of place is suspect.

Onkis specifically is the Goddess of the Darkness That Comes Before...
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