Kellhus: His luck, misfortune, and stupidity (TDTCB)

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Wilshire

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« on: February 17, 2014, 08:49:12 pm »
Thought I would write this up because some things really bothered me on my read through of TDTCB.

  • Stupidity:
    • Upon leaving Ishual Kellhus:
      • Did not have a map
      • Did not know where he was going
      • Did not have any survival skills (No ability to hunt, trap, or forage. No idea what was safe to eat in the forest)
      • Was not dressed for winter, despite the fact that it was it was Autumn and Ishual is high up in the mountains.
      • Had no idea how dangerous sranc were.
      • Allows his body to waste away without using his amazing Dunyain intellect to figure out how to find food in a forest
  • Luck
    • Luck 1:
      • Stumbles upon some ruins just before he dies from exposure and hunger
      • Collapses in the middle of nowhere, which happens to be in the path of Leweth. A man who lives all by himself, providing a way for Kellhus to ease into the world of Earwa
    • Luck 2:
      • Found by Cnaiur just before he dies of blood loss on Skiothaís burial mound
    • Luck 3:
      • Just before Kellhus and Cnaiur are overrun by the Nansur pursuing them, they run into someone who hides them and prevents their capture, which leads to
    • Luck 4:
      • Becomes the student of the only Mandati and probably one of the most knowledgeable people following the Holy War. Akka is basically a historian, and likely one of the most informed people in the entire world.
  • Enormous Misfortune
    • Leweth, who has been living peacefully in the hills for years, is found by sranc. Not just your normal band of raving sranc, but one led by a Quya.
    • Small caravan headed south gets overrun by a large army of sranc.



These events seem quite ridiculous. The fact that Kellhus made it to the Holy War is pretty absurd. Iím not so sure the Dunyain actually intended for Kellhus to make it to the Three Seas at all. Maybe they sent him into the forest to die, or they planned on the Consult finding him, but I have a hard time believing they wanted him to succeed. For being the prodigal Dunyain son, he relied quite a bit on dumb luck to get him through the first half of his journey to Shimeh. At the very least, this points to something happening behind the scenes, what that might be I don't claim to know. [/list][/list] <- can't remove those for some reason...
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 02:04:02 pm by Wilshire »
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Callan S.

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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2014, 10:35:11 pm »
And so you master the subtext that, for all the shouting about how people think Esme wasn't competent, you clearly have Kellhus being autistic and just a lucky bitch at the start - practically being a clown! But it can still be respun as so much 'badass'.

I must point to this thread next time I see a 'Esme wasn't competent' thread.

Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2014, 11:07:38 pm »
Much obliged.

Kellhus was a sputtering fool just like the rest, at least at the start. If anything its a lesson in self-confidence. Kellhus believed he was special, and therefore was. Akka, esmi, and serwe all believed they were worthless, or pretty close too it, and so they were too. A lot of the magic that Kellhus did was really just making people believe that they could do something amazing if only they could believe in themselves.

lmao TSA is a feel good story about a family man to goes out into the world and teaches everyone that they can be special too if only they believe!
I will use this the next time I try to convince someone to start reading Bakker.
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Madness

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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 10:16:21 am »
If anything its a lesson in self-confidence. Kellhus believed he was special, and therefore was. Akka, esmi, and serwe all believed they were worthless, or pretty close too it, and so they were too.

Now that is an interesting thought.

What you believe you are, you become?

Thought I would write this up because some things really bothered me on my read through of TDTCB.

...

These events seem quite ridiculous. The fact that Kellhus made it to the Holy War is pretty absurd.

I think it's a pretty glaring omission at this point in our readings.

Obviously, some party/entity has been helping Kellhus along from the get-go. The World-Conspires/Fate, Ajokli, the Gods, God of Gods, Solitary God, Moenghus the Elder... Kellhus has a long-con partner that he either doesn't know about or that we aren't privy to. Perhaps, he's not even lying to Moenghus the Elder when he tells his Father that the God of Gods speaks to him and that he hears the No-God.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 02:13:44 pm »
For him and against him from the start. The two big misfortunes feel like they almost have to be setups, and on the other hand, no one gets as lucky as he did (at least not in Earwa they don't).

This might be one explanation for shielding the reader from his POV. Would ruin the layered revelations if we knew he knew who was pulling the strings...(here we go, blueberry pie again)...
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Callan S.

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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2014, 02:50:48 am »
(here we go, blueberry pie again)...
See, other people post things that I have absolutely no idea what they are referencing in saying it?

Madness

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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2014, 11:30:17 am »
Starts here.

Comprehension will come after watching my link in the third post of that conversation (standoff).
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Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 02:53:43 pm »
Haha sorry Callan. I forget that sometimes not everyone reads all the threads (which is a ridiculous assumption to make).
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 03:46:46 pm »
Thought I would write this up because some things really bothered me on my read through of TDTCB.

  • Stupidity:
    • Upon leaving Ishual Kellhus:
      • Did not have a map
      • Did not know where he was going
      • Did not have any survival skills (No ability to hunt, trap, or forage. No idea what was safe to eat in the forest)
      • Was not dressed for winter, despite the fact that it was it was Autumn and Ishual is high up in the mountains.
      • Had no idea how dangerous sranc were.
      • Allows his body to waste away without using his amazing Dunyain intellect to figure out how to find food in a forest

Kellhus is defective.  Despite his overblown estimation of his own awesomeness, he is flawed.  He shows too much vestigial passion.  While he is able to control it, it's there, in the darkness before him.  Evidenced by his exhilaration as a child 'fighting' the pragma; by the harsh correction the pragma had to use to get him to focus on his meditation; by his constant inner struggle over killing Cnaiur; by his weeping on the circumfix; by his pride that he knew the world listened and that he was its master (monumental hubris).  Moenghus was right, Kel's passions (his weakness) allowed him to be broken.  He's more human and fallible than he likes to believe.  Doesn't mean he isn't a man among children, just that he's a flawed man among children.

It's a theory.[/list][/list]
No whistling on the slog!

Madness

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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 04:13:46 pm »
He shows too much vestigial passion.  While he is able to control it, it's there, in the darkness before him.

And so he shall take the Tekne and rid himself of these impediments.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2014, 04:57:30 pm »
I don't think having some vestigial passion is an issue. During the meditation scene he is able to identify that those voices/passions exist, and I think that no matter what they will always exist. The isue is being aware of, and controlling, said passions. Though I do agree that he has some issues that he refuses to acknowledge later on. Certainly this could be evidence of him breaking, in the sense that he is no longer a "true" Dunyain. Not that this makes him any less powerful, at least to the people/creatures of Earwa.
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Callan S.

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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 11:53:40 pm »
He shows too much vestigial passion.  While he is able to control it, it's there, in the darkness before him.

And so he shall take the Tekne and rid himself of these impediments.
Then travel through time and space to become a government interrogation specialist on another world, having lost part of his memory but encountering the argument he then modifies himself...

It all ties in!

Madness

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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2014, 02:09:23 pm »
He shows too much vestigial passion.  While he is able to control it, it's there, in the darkness before him.

And so he shall take the Tekne and rid himself of these impediments.
Then travel through time and space to become a government interrogation specialist on another world, having lost part of his memory but encountering the argument he then modifies himself...

It all ties in!

Many authors seem to eventually try tying it all together, even becoming Erratic...

I don't think having some vestigial passion is an issue. During the meditation scene he is able to identify that those voices/passions exist, and I think that no matter what they will always exist. The isue is being aware of, and controlling, said passions. Though I do agree that he has some issues that he refuses to acknowledge later on. Certainly this could be evidence of him breaking, in the sense that he is no longer a "true" Dunyain. Not that this makes him any less powerful, at least to the people/creatures of Earwa.

I'm not sure meditation can completely mediate legion, the vestigial passions in Earwa at least, especially when some or all of those passions really are Gods (Onkis), not biology coming before.

But I'm sure Kellhus could figure out how to severe the link with the Tekne... though, now that I think about it that would mean no sorcery, probably.
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Aural

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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2014, 10:38:43 am »
Thought I would write this up because some things really bothered me on my read through of TDTCB.

  • Stupidity:
    • Upon leaving Ishual Kellhus:
      • Did not have a map
      • Did not know where he was going
      • Did not have any survival skills (No ability to hunt, trap, or forage. No idea what was safe to eat in the forest)
      • Was not dressed for winter, despite the fact that it was it was Autumn and Ishual is high up in the mountains.
      • Had no idea how dangerous sranc were.
      • Allows his body to waste away without using his amazing Dunyain intellect to figure out how to find food in a forest

Did Kellhus even have a choice in leaving Ishual? Because if he didn't, then I'm not sure how we can blame him for any of this. I mean it's one thing to put yourself in a situation that you're not prepared for, but to be forced to survive and accomplish an almost impossible task in an environment that's mostly alien to you is another.

There is no doubt that he got lucky though.[/list]

Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2014, 01:47:29 pm »
Maybe Stupidity is an unfair title for that section. In reality this list shows thatKellhus was far the the master of his own circumstance. It shows, among other things, that the story he tells others (and the reader) isn't the full scope of reality. He might have been ignorant of his own plight, or we might have had the true story hidden from us, but either way, much is happening behind the scenes that we don't know about.

If he was forced out, then we have had no indication of this in the text. I don't claim to know what happened, and him being coerced or forced to leave unprepared is certainly an option.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 07:04:18 pm by Wilshire »
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