Fate of the non-men.

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Crtha

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« on: April 08, 2014, 01:39:24 am »
So, I've developed a theory that the nonmen will be exterminated by the ordeal.

Supporting ideas are:

- First, we have witchs and men eating sranc - how would the non-men react to this?  I suspect both things would be deeply offensive to Siqu.

- Cleric tells Akka that Ishteribinth has turned to the Consult. Lacking any cultural progress or goals, they have turned to tyranny.  Cleric's speech before he arranges his death strongly points to a belief that the he and all the non-men must be expunged before the consult can be defeated.

- After 4000 years, there can be no more intact - not truly.  The original lifespan of non-men was about 400 years, and the tipping point of erraticism is about 5 lifetimes.  We don't know how exactly old the nonmen are, but its been 2000 years since the first apocalypse and the Fall happened quite a few thousand years before the arrival of the Tusk (year 0).  Which makes the surviving non-men probably around 7000 years old.
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their minds can only hold roughly four or five human lifetimes of experiences, and as the centuries pass the traumatic experiences they suffer crowd out their other memories, until now, almost all Nonmen remember only the pain and loss in their lives.
As a group, Kellhus cannot trust them without enslaving them individually.  For the dunyain, it is axiomatic - that which cannot be controlled must be eliminated.

I suspect Serwa is an assassin, and Dagliash is a trap where everyone is planning betrayal.

- Finally, we have the nonmen as analogues to the Tolkien's elves.  The elves leave middle earth for the undying lands after RotK.  I don't think the nonmen will get such a soft exit from Earwa. 

« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 03:49:11 am by Crtha »
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MG

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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2014, 02:44:01 am »
Awesome!  Was rereading the bit about Mekeritrig in TDTCB and was struck by how spry he was.  I bet maybe Bakker abandoned that model for the Cleric thing.  But I will be watching to see if any of the nonmen seem to have it together like M or are a rambling wreck like C.

I think you're definitely right about the ordeal eating sranc being offensive, it hits so many things: 1 ordeal eating nonman face things, 2 ordeal becoming increasingly violent and irrational, 3 ordeal eating what the nonmen now think of as their children, 4 witches eating sranc--double taboo.

Serwa as an assassin seems too much for me.  I can't see her overmatching a crowd of quya.  I could see her acting as a spy to map out how Kellhus will destroy the nonmen and perhaps setting up a sort of warp point so Kellhus can just appear in their midst.

Maybe Ishterebinth is where the last chapter happens: Akka and Mimara emerge from the tunnels meeting all those fleeing whatever happens at the Ark.  Perhaps it's destroyed and ruins (further ruins) all the lands to the water's edge.

Crtha

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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2014, 04:25:00 am »
Cleric doesn't act much like the erratic in Four Revelations either.
And we only have Akka's word that he is erratic. 
In fact, Cleric often claims to remember... the scenes where he struggles could just as easily be much less severe than Cinial'Jin or even outright manipulations and deceit.

Its usually the case that he is talking past people rather than at them (excepting Mimara).
I suspect Cleric might be the product of Nonmen experiments into conditioning.

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The majority of surviving Nonmen, however, dwell in Ishterebinth - stonghold of the ancient Nonmen nation of Injor Niyas - where they struggle to keep the dwindling flame of their ancient civilization alive. Here the Quya and the Siqu masters continue their studies, developing techniques, sorcerous and otherwise, to keep their race sane.

Reading his last scene he sounds like he is describing the ideas behind the dunyain to Seswatha, he goads Akka into killing him, it's not a scene of betrayal and remembering stuff.
He is instigating and controlling various events with Mim and Akka throughout AE, I am sure of it.
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Madness

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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2014, 09:38:21 am »
We don't know that Nonmen had the same type of prohibitive culture as humans do regarding women and sorcery.

But they definitely won't like humans eating Nonmen look-a-likes.
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Crtha

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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2014, 09:46:03 am »
We don't know that Nonmen had the same type of prohibitive culture as humans do regarding women and sorcery.

I can't get behind the notion that they didn't.  Surely the Tutelage would have resulted in some relaxation of patriachal society in the North if they were more egalitarian towards females.
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2014, 09:56:29 am »
There isn't a way for either of us to argue this really. I really enjoyed MG's suggestion that Su'juroit was a Witch-King because he was a she.

Lol - I want to make an argument but I can't either way. Tutelage is some time after the Womb-Plague. We don't know that there weren't a bunch of conversations during the Tutelage like "Tsk. Can't believe you treat your women like this... when we had women (back in my day)." We also don't know that the Nonmen wouldn't show up at the Ordeal and say "Oh, good job, you gave women the Gnosis... took you long enough. But why are you eating our faces?!"
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Crtha

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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2014, 10:18:14 am »
Hehe, true enough. I'd like to be proven wrong on this and it is only my opinion, I'm just not feeling it.

Nevermind though, I only think it would be a lever of action for Kellhus to enact his final solution for the Nonmen anyway.
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MG

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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2014, 12:19:06 pm »
Lol, Kellhus is going to get his troops high on sranc until they plateau and need a better drug.