[Cüréthañ]

Akka gives us three scenarios as to how the Nostal and the Meori betrayed and exterminated the nonmen of Cil Aujis.
Mimara reveals that the cause was in fact the treatment of their Eamwa slaves, that the Meori turned against their allies over this.
Perhaps when the Meori discovered the slave pits a topos was born and Gin'yursis was caught within it.  Watcher and watched; the Eamwa were bred for the sightless mines over 10,000 years then the Meori see their suffering and make it real?

But I wonder at the dragon bones in that room.  Was it attracted to the topos?

And Cleric, does he summon Gin'yursis so that he can be freed by Mimarra's judging eye?
I suspect this is the real reason he leads them through the black halls.

Unwinded, he stares with spent curiosity at the spent Men, trades a long look with the Captain before turning to scan the shrouded spaces.  There is a clarity and command in his dark eyes that she has never seen before - one that both heartens and frightens her. He seems to ponder something that only his eyes can descry.

<...>

Cleric's black eyes hold Mimara for an appraising instant.  "A kind of barracks ... I think. For ancient captives"

"A slave pit." Mimara croaks, so softly that several of the others turn to her frowning.  But she knows the Nonman has heard.

A serpentine blink. His grin reveals the arc of fused teeth ...

<He uses a Surillic Point to show her the scale of the chamber>
<Again, Mimara reflects how Cleric reminds her of Kellhus>

[Madness]

Perhaps when the Meori discovered the slave pits a topos was born and Gin'yursis was caught within it.  Watcher and watched; the Eamwa were bred for the sightless mines over 10,000 years then the Meori see their suffering and make it real?

This makes a curious kind of sense.

But I wonder at the dragon bones in that room.  Was it attracted to the topos?

It was in a cage, wasn't it? I just figured the Nonmen exploited Wracu for use in the mines? Or spoils of their joint victory against the Consult at the Pass?

And Cleric, does he summon Gin'yursis so that he can be freed by Mimarra's judging eye?
I suspect this is the real reason he leads them through the black halls.

This is a cool thought.

[Cüréthañ]

But I wonder at the dragon bones in that room.  Was it attracted to the topos?

It was in a cage, wasn't it? I just figured the Nonmen exploited Wracu for use in the mines? Or spoils of their joint victory against the Consult at the Pass?

Nope, that is a metaphor for its iron ribs.

There, a cage of a different kind, large enough to shell a seafaring galley.  Great ribs rise from the stone like a portcullis grill, curve to meet their counterparts in a kiss of bowed spears.

The skull is taller than a man, so the scale checks out.
I think perhaps it was drawn to the topos when it died...  wracu are powered by internal mini hells anyway if ALLCAPS DRAGON is to be believed. 

[Madness]

Interesting.

Thanks for the quote.

I don't think much of anything about Wutteat specifically is generalizable to the Tekne-Wracu imitations of him.

Timing, timing, timing...

The only two Topoi we've seen are Mengedda and Cil-Aujas... I don't think Wracu are attracted to Topoi. Bakker seems to be playing standard dragon-tropes, thus far - what with the Cave of the Coffers (isolation) and Wutteat's "horde" (treasure).

[Cüréthañ]

Heh, it IS at the very centre of a Topos, though.

I suspect Wutteat has basically the suffered the same fate as the nonmen, his soul has rotted completely away leaving a gateway to Hell that sustains his corpse.  Much like Gin'yursis' shade rides Cleric's body.
If so the wracu probably are just soulless things equivalent to the sranc. 

The 'mini-hell combustion engine' is just a tempting explanation for how something with iron bones, fiery breath, telepathy and the ability to fly could get by without sorcery

[mrganondorf]

Cool Curethan!  So would this put Cleric in Gin'yursis pocket or as lovers or a debt of honor?  Perhaps Cleric is trying to get in good with the part of hell he hopes to reach?  Really hope to see more of Gin!

I don't know about the dragon, I kind of assumed that the nonmen had captured it and was keeping it prisoner with the humans.  Like they would have some kind of gladiator sport of slaves/wracu for the sunday entertainment.  I bet my view is just having read Harry Potter before Bakker.

(click to show/hide)

Dragon in Gringotts

[Cüréthañ]

More like cleaning up.  NG was there when it happened, he had a part in the betrayal and slaughter of the Nonmen of Cil'Aujis.
Cleric indicates that he has spent a lot of time in Cil'Aujis since then.  He certainly remembers his way round well enough.

Perhaps he takes them to heart of the topos by habit, or summons Gin'yursis in order to betray the skin eaters and remember, but that doesn't seem right.

Mimara undoes the Topos with a chorae and her judging eye skillz.  We know chorae are lethal to ciphrang from TTT (explosive salting).  Either her OR the Captain could have pegged their chorae at Cleric and probably banish GY (and killed Cleric).

Based on Cleric's final sermon, I think he is wiping evidence of the Nonmen from history in order to grant their souls oblivion, and I suspect he was colluding with Kellhus to do so.

I have an elaborate nerdanel where, following Mengedda, NG and some of the intact Siqu, Seswatha and elements of the Sohonc used forbidden knowledge from the nonmen mystery cults, the aporos and the quya version of the daimos to enact some term contingency plans including the Dunyain and the Mandate.
___

Wracu as pets?  Lol!

[Madness]

He knew something of demons, Ciphrang, knew that when summoned, a Chorae could destroy their corporeal form. But what faced them had risen on a tide of unreality. Hell had come with him, the shade of Gin'yursis, the last Nonmen King of Cil-Aujas, and he should have taken them all, Chorae or no Chorae.

But something had happened. She had happened.

Anasurimbor Mimara, cursed with the Judging Eye.

Just remembered this in reading your words. Also, "corporeal form" overturns my previous established considerations of that trend of topic as well.

[mrganondorf]

Mimara undoes the Topos with a chorae and her judging eye skillz.

Love it!!!  Can she cleanse a topos as big as Golgotterath?

[mrganondorf]

If the Great Ordeal is a vehicle to move sorcerers to Golgotterath, then humanity would be plain fucked if Gin'yursis hadn't initiated the sorcerous tutelage.  Was Gin playing the long con against the Inchoroi?

[Wilshire]

Wow, the long game indeed. The tutelage was post-immortality right? I imagine it takes some time to stop thinking in terms of years or even centuries, but in terms of millenia. At some point they probably realized that they would need an X-factor to destroy the Inchoroi. Their main advantage was the Quya, once the ability to use sorcery was taken and they started using chorae, they were fighting a losing battle (whether they realized it or not). They couldn't destroy Golgotterath and they couldn't kill everything inside of it, and they knew their own species was doomed.

It seems possible that the tutelage could have been a contingency plan by some of the longer sighted nonmen to insure the Inchoroi did not win after the might of the Nonman waned.

[Simas Polchias]

If the Great Ordeal is a vehicle to move sorcerers to Golgotterath, then humanity would be plain fucked if Gin'yursis hadn't initiated the sorcerous tutelage.  Was Gin playing the long con against the Inchoroi?

It seems possible that the tutelae could have been a contingency plan by some of the longer sighted nonmen to insure the Inchoroi did not win after the might of the Nonman waned.

Ahem.

As far as I remember, nonmen destroyed Inchoroi and sealed their Arc so tigh that even powerful Quya like Mekeretrig was unable to unlock it (btw, always thought inchoroi twin-brothers were not lucky stowaway survivors but a living component of a nonmen glamour spell; it somehow fits with Arc immunity to magic and brothers ability to use sorcery). So nonmen have nothing to worry at all — and mostly because it was their pride what fueled them in Cuno-Inchoroi war, not some noble care for the world's safety or the other races' future.

Also, it was actually Mangaecca, one of nonman tutelage gnostic schools, who managed to bypass nonman security sorcery placed around Arc.

So, guys, what I`m sneaking up to — without Gin'yursis there would be no Consult, no No-God, no First & Second Apocalypse as well.

[Cüréthañ]

Erm, Gin'yursis was the king of Cil'Aujis, located to the north of the Kyranean empire.

Nil'giccas (aka Cleric) is referred to as the greatest of the Siqu by Akka.  According to all the info we have, the non-men of Ishterberinth probably conducted the tutelage among the Norasai pretty much exclusively.

[Simas Polchias]

Erm, Gin'yursis was the king of Cil'Aujis, located to the north of the Kyranean empire.
Nil'giccas (aka Cleric) is referred to as the greatest of the Siqu by Akka.  According to all the info we have, the non-men of Ishterberinth probably conducted the tutelage among the Norasai pretty much exclusively.

Aw! Good point, but I was mostly referring to this:
Sos-Praniura was a Gnostic sorcerer, the greatest student of Gin'yursis. In 684, Sos-Praniura founded the Mangaecca, the School which would later become the Consult

[Cüréthañ]

Interesting...
Probably the Norasai would have had some commerce with Cil'Aujis across their southern borders or some of the southern nonmen participated in the tutelage.