Non-man with the faces

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TaoHorror

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« on: April 18, 2014, 09:41:00 pm »
Apologies if this is already been addressed, new member here and couldn't find anything using the "Search". I read all the books ( 5 so far ) and miss the Non-man with the faces all over his cloak, the dude who put the boot to Kellhus' hind side in the beginning. That stayed with me, always thinking "my goodness, Kellhus is so powerful and something's out there that easily bested him ... ". He was wandering the 3 Seas telling people he was impossibly ancient and beutiful, I think and then nothing thereafter best I can tell. I take it he was/is Metrikitrich ( spelling! the one who tortured Seswartha on the wall 2,000 years before ). Anyone know more?
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Aural

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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2014, 10:08:19 pm »
\Bakker revealed his identity a long time ago on the Three Seas forum (which you guessed correctly). Though that meant that there were some continuity issues with the whole "I fought for and against the No-God", which Bakker also confirmed. But to be honest, I wouldn't mind if he's simply some unknown Nonman from the Consult or Ishterebinth.

An interesting question though is who's the face that he said reminded him of Kellhus?

TaoHorror

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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2014, 10:50:51 pm »
Ah, thanks! The Consult - still a little confused on that one. They're "human" sorcerers ... they're the skin-spies too I think ... so they teamed with the aliens and used their Tekne to develop the skin-spy ability ... hmm, maybe not, maybe the skin-spies are "products" of the Consult using the Tekne because the "thing" tracking Mimara in the White Luck Warrior didn't have a soul, so if it was one of the Consult Sorcerers themselves then it would have a soul being a human. I love the play with conscious creatures with no soul still having free will ( the "thing" seemed to "like" Mimara which suggests a will of some kind, to deviate from plan with preferences ... so either nobody has a soul or others beyond human have souls too ... I guess ).
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Crtha

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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2014, 11:01:58 pm »
Welcome to TSA, Toahorror.

The consult are comprised of the last two Inchoroi (Aurax and Aurang), the human sorcerers of the Nosarai school of the Mangecea (Shaenora is their leader) and an unknown number of nonman erratics (including Mekeritrig) and members of the Quyan school of Aporetic Sorcery (who made the chorae). 

The weapon races (Sranc, Bashrag and Wracu) are soulless (excepting rare cases like the one that could use sorcery and posed as Skeos).  Think of them like advanced AI's - although their situation is similar to animals (i.e. soulless except in very rare cases).  Nonmen, Inchoroi and Humans all have souls and therefore are concerned about damnation.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2014, 11:11:52 pm »
Thank you, glad to be here! And thank you for being kind to respond - amazing, those few sentences cleared up a year+ of confusion. Nicely done, sir!
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2014, 11:29:10 pm »
I took the question of the face reminding him of Kellhus to be of personality/situation and not appearance. Could be an old relative, but thought more that it was someone "feisty", hard to kill perhaps. Mekeritrig ( and thanks for the correct spelling ) is one of my favorite characters in the books, his "conversation" with Seswatha on the wall was ... memorable. I have to hand it to Bakker, he's amazing with evil ( not accurate, but can't think of the right word - alien perhaps ) logic and pathology. His descriptions of the apocalypse with dragons falling from the sky picking off panic scattered humans was terrifying - pangs at something deep in me, something "not right" with humans so helpless against animals - our ingenuity, our resourcefulness, our intellect ... none of it enough to stop the annihilation - the only thing that worked was something of the enemies' own manufacture.
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Crtha

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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2014, 12:24:21 am »
Oops, I said Skeos above, but I meant Akka's old teacher from the Mandate - forget his name right now.  Skeos was the Ikurei advisor - apologies!

I believe the face on Mek's cloak may have been an Anasurimbor ancestor.  I think that comes after Kellhus tells Mek his name? Nau Cayuti or Celmomas, perhaps?  Akka muses about how similar they look at other points.

I agree - the weapon races are truly nasty and Bakker's dragons are some of the best in fantasy.  Right proper scary, like flying dinosaurs made of magic and metal should be.
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Aural

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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2014, 02:39:07 am »
Are we sure that the Consult still has the Aopretic Quya who made the Chorae? I think I remember Bakker saying that the Aporos is supposed to be an old dead branch of sorcery.

Crtha

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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2014, 03:57:27 am »
Don't see why not.  The non-men are immortal and quya with aporetic knowledge sided with the Inchies and produce the chorae for them.

Quote from: RSB
The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own
intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several
renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of
thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

The Aporos possesses a contradictory, or negative, semantics, and as such is able only to
undo the positive semantics of things like the Gnosis, Psukhe, Anagogis - even the Daimos.

Aporetic Cants have no other effect. Salting is actually a kind of side effect. I would
rather wait until TTT comes out before discussing the metaphysics - it has to do with the
Mark.
---
My original idea was for the Aporos to be a 'dead and ancient' branch of the esoterics. I'm
still leaning in that direction, but I find the notion of a sorcery based on a semantics of
contradiction and paradox almost too juicy to resist!

Quote comes from when he was still working on the PoN trilogy.  "Dead and ancient" could also be interpreted as meaning that the applications are strictly limited.
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2014, 03:59:07 am »
Oops, I said Skeos above, but I meant Akka's old teacher from the Mandate - forget his name right now.  Skeos was the Ikurei advisor - apologies!

I think it was Simas.
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MG

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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2014, 03:47:34 am »
Hello TaoHorror!  I'd like to know about that face too, but a little part of me says that Bakker was just getting started there and he may not follow up with that detail.  Would be cool though!  What if Mekeritrig got Celmomas face somehow or its Nau-Cayuti???

OR..what if there has been a whole line of Kellhus clones produced and Mekeritrig has a whole cloak of them???  Our Kellhus is the only one who survived!





or maybe its seswatha

Madness

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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2014, 02:14:47 pm »
Lol - I've always been bugged by just who Kellhus reminds Mekeritrig of...

I took the question of the face reminding him of Kellhus to be of personality/situation and not appearance. Could be an old relative, but thought more that it was someone "feisty", hard to kill perhaps.

I like this thought.

Quote comes from when he was still working on the PoN trilogy.  "Dead and ancient" could also be interpreted as meaning that the applications are strictly limited.

+1 - this is what I hope and think; I kind of remember a later quote where he seemed to be reconsidering its future application to the story.
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Crtha

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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2014, 01:43:50 am »
Depends whether the No-god is a creation of aporetic sorcery or tekne, I guess.  The chorae on the carapace could be indicative of either.
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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2014, 12:06:28 pm »
If it's a design of the Inchoroi, Tekne first, sorcery second.

However, the Inchoroi seem to have known about a world where sorcery was possible - so they easily might have planned for the future...
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Crtha

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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2014, 01:52:42 am »
I think sorcery was an unexpected application of metaphysics the Inchies couldn't quite conceive manipulating with the Tekne alone.
Especially if they hit their own semantic apocalypse and lost the ability to properly understand certain spiritual qualia such as suffering and compassion.

They have the Inverse Fire - presumably created with Tekne.  Therefore they must have known of the outside.
No reason to me that the Tekne could not be used to design something like the no-god.  Sorcery might just bridge certain gaps.
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