Non-man with the faces

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Madness

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« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2014, 12:10:16 pm »
They have the Inverse Fire - presumably created with Tekne.  Therefore they must have known of the outside.
No reason to me that the Tekne could not be used to design something like the no-god.  Sorcery might just bridge certain gaps.

Hmm...

Can you elaborate on the italics and how it follows that knowing of the Outside means knowing of sorcery?

On the bold, that has been my loose argument but I got the sense you were suggesting that that the No-God could be a product of sorcery alone and I disagree with that.
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Crtha

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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2014, 12:25:00 am »
They have the Inverse Fire - presumably created with Tekne.  Therefore they must have known of the outside.
No reason to me that the Tekne could not be used to design something like the no-god.  Sorcery might just bridge certain gaps.

Hmm...

Can you elaborate on the italics and how it follows that knowing of the Outside means knowing of sorcery?

On the bold, that has been my loose argument but I got the sense you were suggesting that that the No-God could be a product of sorcery alone and I disagree with that.

On your question, my assertion is that knowledge of the Outside implies that something like sorcery is hypothetically possible.

Without the intrinsic abilities of voice and extrasensory perception, the Inchies were unable to concieve the methods that Earwan sorcerers employ to summon and manipulate the metaphysical forms and energies. Thus, sorcery (as we readers see it) was a surprise to them, but also a confirmation - not a contradiction.

Similarly, I think that Earwans were/are capable of developing something like the tekne, given the correct tools.

As to the No-god, my suggestion was that the Tekne might have suggested such a thing as possible by theoretical design, but that the Aporos filled in the gaps to make a practical reality.
For example;
Dr Inchstein writes that, if we could somehow capture lesser creatures' souls and delete the information from them, we could combine them to create an alternate outside, and ward it with some type of metaphysical contradiction that would deny the rule of the purely non-physical beings that damn us.  We could then use ontalogical Tekne grafts to link ourselves to this 'no-god' and avoid the domination of these 'meta-creatures' of the Outside (see Inchstein's paper on "Proof of the Afterlife")and thus forestall our eternal doom.
Of course, with no methods available with which to 'capture souls' and the purely theoretical idea of 'contradiction fields', we should proceed with our current strategy to exterminate other sentient beings universally.
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MG

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Madness

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« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2014, 01:27:47 pm »
On your question, my assertion is that knowledge of the Outside implies that something like sorcery is hypothetically possible.

Without the intrinsic abilities of voice and extrasensory perception, the Inchies were unable to concieve the methods that Earwan sorcerers employ to summon and manipulate the metaphysical forms and energies. Thus, sorcery (as we readers see it) was a surprise to them, but also a confirmation - not a contradiction.

Similarly, I think that Earwans were/are capable of developing something like the tekne, given the correct tools.

Entertaining but unclear. It doesn't follow for me that knowledge of the Outside would make knowledge of sorcery obvious?

Also, the Inchoroi "made sounds," the Cunoroi just couldn't understand them.

And don't the Dunyain and determinism/materialism-lite make it somewhat clear that Earwa still exists in a material world - wouldn't anyone be able to discover Tekne? Earwa simply had no reason to advance past a certain point technologically unless it was in rebellion to sorcery specifically?

Lol - Anti-Luddite Earwans.
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Davias

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« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2014, 02:39:12 pm »
Mmmmhhh, that discussion leads me to the old question: "What is so special about Erwa?" Why do the inchies think, it is their PROMISED world, like Wuttet says?
Is it the presence or the interaction with the Outside? Or maybe the using of sorcery by the population of Erwa?
So many questions, whirling around in my head, when I click on a thread here. ;)

Crtha

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« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2014, 03:07:14 pm »
It doesn't follow for me that knowledge of the Outside would make knowledge of sorcery obvious?

I didn't suggest that it makes sorcery obvious, I said it makes it conceivable.

Sorcery makes the existence of the outside obvious - in part because it is clearly the source of magical power, but also because it is applied via the soul.

Sure, Earwan's could have independently discovered some version of the Tekne (indeed, the skin spies are likely the result of the Mangeccea's efforts).  Agree that they had no need - and yes, the dunyain seem to have progressed along some similar lines - possibly because they reject sorcery, possibly because they rebel against TDTCB.

I know the Inchies originally made sounds, but they clearly also communicate by other means - such as pheromones and touch. Just as they couldn't naturally see the onta, there could easily be some other faculties that they possess that Humans and Nonmen lack that made using the Tekne (with its grafts and genetic manipulations) a lot easier and more natural for them.
 
Kellhus is not surprised by the Tekne at all when he works out what the skin spies are, he quickly connects it to the Dunyain knowledge of physiology. 
Similarly, the Inchies worked out how to graft the ability to use sorcery via the Tekne.
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Madness

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« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2014, 01:28:45 pm »
It doesn't follow for me that knowledge of the Outside would make knowledge of sorcery obvious?

I didn't suggest that it makes sorcery obvious, I said it makes it conceivable.

...

Similarly, the Inchies worked out how to graft the ability to use sorcery via the Tekne.

I kind of get where you are coming from. But I really don't think that looking at the Outside through the IF (if that is what it does) necessarily suggests that Outside extends into the world and, in certain cases, when it does so it enables some individuals to be able to work sorcery (or whatever they might theoretically call it without being exposed to sorcery first).

I don't know if we're missing each other :-\.
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Crtha

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« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2014, 04:14:03 am »
Ugh, I'll try a clunky analogy.
Say, for example that the advent of television revealed the existence of hell and damnation to us.  How long do you think it would take for scientists to include that evidence into their work?  It ceases to be philosophy.  One can now measure, extrapolate and test. 

The relationship between meaning and the mundane works only through sentient beings.  There must be an overlap, the outside extends into the Earwaverse through every sentient beings' soul. 
The idea that some beings can use that to impose meaning on the mundane is implicitly connected to what happens to that soul on the outside, where the mundane existence (your life) is completely subsumed by the meaning reflected back from the mundane.  Damnation implies meaning has a measurable real world effect, an overlap of frequencies, perhaps.  You don't need to be of the few for the outside to leak in through you.

The Inchies have done their research. They managed to work out that their damnation meant there were other sentient beings who were imposing meaning on the mundane somewhere.  They have calculated 144k souls as some kind of tipping point, thus their quest.  They had plans for leaving animals intact, immortality treatments, genomorphing and probably theoretical ideas for imposing meaning in designs like Mog if they could harness their quarry's abilities.

The Inchies couldn't leverage sorcery but they probably had proof it was theoretically possible and were able to adapt it, even without proper mastery of the Tekne - once they saw how it worked. 

Finally finding a race of sentient beings that could actually use sorcery to impose meaning might have been seen as a sign of the promised land, perhaps one predicted by the long dead Tekne masters.

That's the best I can explain it - it all seems pretty consistent to me.
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Madness

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« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2014, 12:15:39 pm »
It's fairly good, really. I don't think I disagree with you as much as I don't really care about this particular content.

So to sum up for myself your thoughts On Theoretical Sorcery: The Inchoroi make a TV but where we have static from cosmic background raditation they have Damnation. They would be able to understand the phenomenon by Teknological experimentation. We assume they come to understand that Damnation is both real and occurs because somewhere in the Uni(omni?)verse, a number of souls impose their meaning on the Outside which imposes it's meaning on all ensoulled creatures in the Uni(omni?)verse? (This last part is the weakest aspect I can find, the links in that last run-on sentence).
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Crtha

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« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2014, 11:01:28 am »
Yeah, not really.  Bad analogy, sorry.  Shae experiences the Inverse Fire, he doesn't just see it, it's really nothing like a television.  Maybe if you discovered that every channel was already filled with scenes from your life played out in variations - something like 'Rixty Minutes' but concerned only with your suffering?  Lol, idk.

The point is that personal beliefs and meanings are completed subsumed by external ones that persist after death.  Obviously, a system must exist for imposing variations of said meaning.  The gods are one example, sorcerers another.  Earwa is the promised land dude - the Inchies knew to expect someplace where the ground itself would remember.
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« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2014, 01:13:19 pm »
Maybe if you discovered that every channel was already filled with scenes from your life played out in variations - something like 'Rixty Minutes' but concerned only with your suffering?  Lol, idk.

Lol made sense.

The point is that personal beliefs and meanings are completed subsumed by external ones that persist after death.  Obviously, a system must exist for imposing variations of said meaning.  The gods are one example, sorcerers another.  Earwa is the promised land dude - the Inchies knew to expect someplace where the ground itself would remember.

I'm still unsure. I just like to try for succinct clarity :).
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Crtha

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« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2014, 10:08:29 pm »
Sorry, its hard to imagine how meaning can be implicit and retain its subjective frame at the same time.  It just doesn't lend itself to clarity or brevity, I think.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2014, 07:56:40 pm »

I kind of get where you are coming from. But I really don't think that looking at the Outside through the IF (if that is what it does) necessarily suggests that Outside extends into the world

Why not? If the Inchoroi didn't believe that the Outside was connected to them in some personal way, they wouldn't be so afraid of it. By being able to create a way to see it, it is inherently connected to this space/time in some way.

and, in certain cases, when it does so it enables some individuals to be able to work sorcery (or whatever they might theoretically call it without being exposed to sorcery first).

I don't know if we're missing each other :-\.
This is where the disconnect is, I think.

Curethan is just saying that when the Inchoroi discovered that there was something outside of their realm of physics/reality/science, they might have theorized ways that it (the outside) interacted with the known universe. Since it interacted (somehow) with them,  there must be (theoretically) a way to interact with it. Without sorcery and the preceptory organs to grasp the Onta, they where never able to move beyond theory.

Once they discovered sorcery, they found could put their theories into practical use. All they needed was a little genetic grafting and a teacher...

This assumes, I guess, that the Outside is indeed responsible for Sorcery. If what the IF shows is not the Outside, or if the Gods/meta-physics are somehow not connected with the Outside the IF shows, or if none of it is connected to sorcery, and if the Inchoroi knew all that to be true, then Sorcery would be have been a complete surprise.

Even if the Inchoroi couldn't conceive of a way to use the Outside (i.e. Sorcery) to alter the world, they would at least have dismissed it as an impossible scientific construct. Once the saw Sorcery, it would have tipped them off that they were wrong. The Inchoroi might not even see a distinction between Sorcery and mundane Physics. Afterall, their Tekne was able to dupulicate the ability to wield it. They simply extended their scientific know-how into the the "spiritual" realm.

Hope that didn't just make things more confusing.
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Crtha

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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2014, 11:26:00 pm »
I'm tied up with the idea that the energy and forms required for sorcery come from somewhere. Sorcery turns on meaning and the Outside seems to be comprised of just that.  The term itself implies a source that is channeled and is, I feel, deliberately chosen for that reason.

The idea that Damnation eclipses any personal frame of reference demonstrates that the physical world itself has meaning; i.e. meaning is not internal and personal but exists within shared reality.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2014, 12:56:15 am »
That hinges on Mimara's Judging Eye, since I'm guessing thats where "damnation eclipses any personal frame" comes from. I hope that it does truly show some kind of objective reality... I need a anchor, I'm growing tired of floating around in speculations. Something needs to provide a concrete ground with which to judge other things by.... or else we'll never make head/tails of anything.

I'm tied up with the idea that the energy and forms required for sorcery come from somewhere. Sorcery turns on meaning and the Outside seems to be comprised of just that.  The term itself implies a source that is channeled and is, I feel, deliberately chosen for that reason.

Meaning from where (who?)? If it is internal, then there is a paradox, if it is external it must come from something/somewhere/somebody.

Generally though, I like the idea.
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