Skin Spies and the Judging Eye

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Zadok

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« on: June 03, 2014, 01:08:09 am »
I was re-reading TJE and it struck me as odd that Mimara wasn't able to identify Soma when she saw him with the Judging Eye.  Surely he would've at least appeared different from all the other Skin Eaters but she doesn't remark on it.  Or is it possible to be damned even when you don't have a soul?

Madness

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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2014, 01:27:48 am »
If I recall correctly, the moment you're thinking of the Eye specifically closes before Mimara looks at Soma... Though, I'd need to check my TJE.

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Zadok

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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2014, 02:08:44 am »
Possibly, I may be confused because of the Chorae, I assumed when she was seeing it as the light that meant her Eye was open.

Wilshire

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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2014, 01:40:20 pm »
Some discussion on this topic:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=907.msg14480#msg14480

Also take a look at TJE p612 (Canadian paperback). Some differences in page numbering exist between editions, but its in chapter 16.
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2014, 05:41:55 pm »
Hi Zadok!  There are so many things I want to see with Mimara's judging eye: skin spies, Kellhus, the Consult, the No-God, the Heron Spear, qirri, shit-herders, and myself.  Maybe we'll get a chapter in The Unholy Consult where Mimi is just looking at things that parade in front of her :P

Zadok

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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2014, 10:09:21 pm »
I read the chapter again, it seems like Soma comes over and starts talking to her right after the Judging Eye opens and the Chorae transforms.  I thought seeing the Chorae as the bright light was related to the Eye being open but then she wonders if Kosoter's Chorae would also shine in her "natural"(assuming this meant the Eye is closed) sight.  But then in the WLW there's no mention of the bright Chorae until she sees Kosoter with the Judging Eye.  She even described them as "dark little twins sucking oblivion" earlier, so I'm not sure what to think.

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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2014, 02:03:42 pm »
Quote from: TJE, p612, Canadian paperback
"Where did you get that?" Soma asks. He is crouching before her, nodding to the Chorae in her palm - or to what used to be a Chorae ...

...

"I did not come for riches." She studies his dark, handsome face through the threads of shining white radiating from her palm. "So you don't see the light?"

He glances up at the Surillic Point, frowning. "I see it plainly enough..." He looks back at her, eyebrows raised. "It's you I'm having difficulty seeing, with that thing pressed against your skin. You look like a... breathing shadow..."

"I mean this," she says, raising her palm. "What do you see when you look at this?"

...

"A ball of shadow," he says slowly.
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locke

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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2014, 11:43:59 pm »
Why does a skin spy see a chorae as a ball of shadow?

Crtha

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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2014, 04:07:55 am »
I imagine the chorae is canceling the light from the surillic point rather than being indicative of Tsuor's unique perspective.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2014, 04:39:42 pm »
I imagine the chorae is canceling the light from the surillic point rather than being indicative of Tsuor's unique perspective.
This. I read the exerpt and thought at first that he must be unable to see the chorae, but Curethan's post cleared that up. I now recall that in the context of the whole text it does appear that he surrilic light cannot reach Mim because of the chorae's effect.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 12:35:02 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2014, 09:34:04 pm »
I imagine the chorae is canceling the light from the surillic point rather than being indicative of Tsuor's unique perspective.
This. I read the exerpt and thought at first that he must be able to see the chorae, but Curethan's post cleared that up. I now recall that in the context of the whole text it does appear that he surrilic light cannot read Mim because of the chorae's effect.

Unless Tsuor is lying about what he sees!!!

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2014, 12:37:06 pm »
I think everyone sees it as such, not just the skinspy. The light produced by the Surrilic Point is magical in nature, and therefore the chorae cancels the effects.

Curiously, only the corae and a small radius around it is untouched by the light. One might think that, when touching the chorae, you would be unable to see any of the light, and the entire person would be cast in shadows.
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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2014, 04:01:56 am »
I don't really think Tsor has a soul (he can't seem to grasp paradoxes, as we have seen -- the paradoxical joking of the Skin-Eaters in TJE being one example...although that could just be a purposeful charade, but I doubt it). I do, however, definitely believe that the whole "skin-spy with a soul" concept will be important later on, and that it's actually not an "anomaly", but an intentional creation by the Consult that is perhaps extremely difficult to produce, or is for some reason a limited resource. I feel the situation with the original Mandate Grandmaster (can't remember his name, the one Maithanet reveals and kills) being an ensouled skin-spy was more of an early indicator that such creatures are actually possible, since in the grand scheme of things it really didn't seem have much significance plotwise...aside from showing off some early Maithanet-badassery (and who doesn't want as much of that as possible?).

I also think there's the possibility of an ensouled sranc, or perhaps more likely, an Ursranc. Given the brief sranc-chieftain's POV from the WLW (which came off as a barely cognizant, idiotic beast whose internal thoughts consisted primarily of KILL-MURDER-FUCK"), it seems really, really weird to me that a being of such power as Mekeritrig would use one a regular old sranc as his freaking elju, a responsibility (a privilege even, to some) of enormous importance the Erratic in question. I mean this guy is the main Nonman representative of the Consult, and one of the four agencies that forms its entire leadership (along with Shauriatas, Aurax, and Aurang).

This could just be chalked up to conditioning/training of the sranc-elju, or perhaps even a bit of early world-building inconsistency, which we already have at least one example of in that prologue section.

Crtha

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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2014, 05:25:16 am »
The thing called Simas.

The scene in question reveals that Moenghus has broken his captive skin spies.  This is how they know there is a magic using skin-spy within the Mandate that must be removed before they go to meet Kellhus.
Maithanet explains that the thing called Simas is an unpredicted, un-reproducible anomaly based on the same source of information - captured directly from the Consult.  I feel like its probably legit in regard to further speculation. 

I think an Elju is only used to prompt an Erratic along his pre-determined course, but they must have a face/manner that will remind the Erratic to listen to them.  Some resemblance to they few (traumatic) memories they constantly carry. Sranc have the same faces as Nonmen, so Mek's could be one that resembles his dead wife or whatever and only needs to be able to provide simple reminders, like he's heading to Golgotteroth or whatever.

However...
It's interesting to note that Maitha captures the skin-spy rather than killing it.   
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Simas Polchias

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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2014, 03:30:03 pm »
I do, however, definitely believe that the whole "skin-spy with a soul" concept will be important later on, and that it's actually not an "anomaly", but an intentional creation by the Consult that is perhaps extremely difficult to produce, or is for some reason a limited resource..
Maybe, it's just a considerations of outer control and inner efficiency. Would be funny if ensouled skinspy is easy to make and soulsess one is hard.

I also think there's the possibility of an ensouled sranc, or perhaps more likely, an Ursranc.
As far as I remember, Bakker mentioned that even animals in Earwa can have souls, though it's an almost impossibly-rare situation. It's all about complexity of someone's conciousness, right?