[TGO SPOILERS] Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?

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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2015, 04:30:21 pm »
What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.

Let's not discount his early-life blindness as a major factor in this ability to use proto-Psûkhe.

There was probably also something special about Titirga's soul, just like there was probably something special about Fane's (considering that the Indara-Kishauri didn't discover the Psûkhe on their own).
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2015, 07:00:32 pm »
What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.

Let's not discount his early-life blindness as a major factor in this ability to use proto-Psûkhe.

There was probably also something special about Titirga's soul, just like there was probably something special about Fane's (considering that the Indara-Kishauri didn't discover the Psûkhe on their own).

didn't discover it on their own?

MSJ

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« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2015, 07:24:13 pm »
What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.

I'd say that what makes Kellhus and Serwe special is they have no passion. The gnostic is based on meaning and the purity of said meaning. Their able to remove everything they associate with their utterals an inutterals, and its pure meaning. Incandescence geometrics, man!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2015, 08:00:06 pm »
didn't discover it on their own?

Hmm, well, it is possible that Fane invoked the name Indara solely to bank of already seated beliefs on which to build the Solitary God.

My point was broadly that the legend of the Indara never spawned Psûhke users before though.  Something was different with Fane.  Considering though that he was a Shrial Priest in the Nansur province of Eumarna, it is unclear if he would have went into the desert with knowledge of the legend of the Indara.  Either way, something happened and it wasn't just a function of Kianese culture.  Something was particular about Fane.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2015, 12:37:57 am »
What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.

I'd say that what makes Kellhus and Serwe special is they have no passion. The gnostic is based on meaning and the purity of said meaning. Their able to remove everything they associate with their utterals an inutterals, and its pure meaning. Incandescence geometrics, man!

That was in response to MG, who seemed to suggest that Serwe would be able to do something similar to Titirga.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2015, 04:57:41 pm »

What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.

I'd say that what makes Kellhus and Serwe special is they have no passion. The gnostic is based on meaning and the purity of said meaning. Their able to remove everything they associate with their utterals an inutterals, and its pure meaning. Incandescence geometrics, man!

That was in response to MG, who seemed to suggest that Serwe would be able to do something similar to Titirga.

im lost. is Wilshire responding to me? when will TUC be out?

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2015, 05:02:36 pm »

didn't discover it on their own?

Hmm, well, it is possible that Fane invoked the name Indara solely to bank of already seated beliefs on which to build the Solitary God.

My point was broadly that the legend of the Indara never spawned Psûhke users before though.  Something was different with Fane.  Considering though that he was a Shrial Priest in the Nansur province of Eumarna, it is unclear if he would have went into the desert with knowledge of the legend of the Indara.  Either way, something happened and it wasn't just a function of Kianese culture.  Something was particular about Fane.

cool! i had never thought of "Indara" as anything more than another neato-Bakker-word! so, Fane leaves the 1000 temples because he (she) is disillusioned, wanders into the Carathay, is dying of thirst, is found by an erratic who nurses Fane back to health before blinding him (her) in order to remember, proceeds to teach Fane magyk. the result of an insane immortal teaching a blind religious zealot end up being novel? :)

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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2015, 06:41:28 pm »

didn't discover it on their own?

Hmm, well, it is possible that Fane invoked the name Indara solely to bank of already seated beliefs on which to build the Solitary God.

My point was broadly that the legend of the Indara never spawned Psûhke users before though.  Something was different with Fane.  Considering though that he was a Shrial Priest in the Nansur province of Eumarna, it is unclear if he would have went into the desert with knowledge of the legend of the Indara.  Either way, something happened and it wasn't just a function of Kianese culture.  Something was particular about Fane.

cool! i had never thought of "Indara" as anything more than another neato-Bakker-word! so, Fane leaves the 1000 temples because he (she) is disillusioned, wanders into the Carathay, is dying of thirst, is found by an erratic who nurses Fane back to health before blinding him (her) in order to remember, proceeds to teach Fane magyk. the result of an insane immortal teaching a blind religious zealot end up being novel? :)

I would think it goes a little differently.

Quote
The Prophet of the Solitary God and founder of Fanimry. Initially a Shrial Priest in the Nansur province of Eumarna, Fane was declared a heretic by the ecclesiastical courts of the Thousand Temples in 3703 and banished to certain death in the Carathay Desert. According to Fanim tradition, rather than dying in the desert, Fane went blind, experienced the series of revelations narrated in the kipfa’aifan, the “Witness of Fane,” and was granted miraculous powers (the same powers attributed to the Cishaurim) he called the Water of Indara.

Quote
The “Indara” refer, in the Kianene tradition, to the “tribe of water-bearers,” a legendary band that supposedly wandered the dunes dispensing water and mercy to the faithful. The designation is critical (according to the kipfa’aifan, it saved Fane’s life), given the importance of tribal affiliation in desert Kianene society.

So, I think what happens is that Fane is out in the dessert, dying of thirst.  He ends up, on his deathbed, staring into the sun and blinds himself.  In doing so, he suffers the Revelations, which retrieve him out the other side of madness.  Now, here is where it is confusing, either the Indara (or some one) actually come to save him, or he imagines the Indara come and save him (and he actually uses The Water to save himself).  Either way, he now has a syncretic way to present the Water to the Kianese, building the Solitary God upon the foundation of already existing beliefs tied into the legend of the Indara and the general sacredness of Water in a place such a Kian.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2015, 07:12:16 pm »


didn't discover it on their own?

Hmm, well, it is possible that Fane invoked the name Indara solely to bank of already seated beliefs on which to build the Solitary God.

My point was broadly that the legend of the Indara never spawned Psûhke users before though.  Something was different with Fane.  Considering though that he was a Shrial Priest in the Nansur province of Eumarna, it is unclear if he would have went into the desert with knowledge of the legend of the Indara.  Either way, something happened and it wasn't just a function of Kianese culture.  Something was particular about Fane.

cool! i had never thought of "Indara" as anything more than another neato-Bakker-word! so, Fane leaves the 1000 temples because he (she) is disillusioned, wanders into the Carathay, is dying of thirst, is found by an erratic who nurses Fane back to health before blinding him (her) in order to remember, proceeds to teach Fane magyk. the result of an insane immortal teaching a blind religious zealot end up being novel? :)

I would think it goes a little differently.

Quote
The Prophet of the Solitary God and founder of Fanimry. Initially a Shrial Priest in the Nansur province of Eumarna, Fane was declared a heretic by the ecclesiastical courts of the Thousand Temples in 3703 and banished to certain death in the Carathay Desert. According to Fanim tradition, rather than dying in the desert, Fane went blind, experienced the series of revelations narrated in the kipfa’aifan, the “Witness of Fane,” and was granted miraculous powers (the same powers attributed to the Cishaurim) he called the Water of Indara.

Quote
The “Indara” refer, in the Kianene tradition, to the “tribe of water-bearers,” a legendary band that supposedly wandered the dunes dispensing water and mercy to the faithful. The designation is critical (according to the kipfa’aifan, it saved Fane’s life), given the importance of tribal affiliation in desert Kianene society.

So, I think what happens is that Fane is out in the dessert, dying of thirst.  He ends up, on his deathbed, staring into the sun and blinds himself.  In doing so, he suffers the Revelations, which retrieve him out the other side of madness.  Now, here is where it is confusing, either the Indara (or some one) actually come to save him, or he imagines the Indara come and save him (and he actually uses The Water to save himself).  Either way, he now has a syncretic way to present the Water to the Kianese, building the Solitary God upon the foundation of already existing beliefs tied into the legend of the Indara and the general sacredness of Water in a place such a Kian.

aw cmon! u know cujara is hiding in the desert!

or maybe when the Heron Spear cracked the Carapace, whoever was in there ran away in the commotion and hid in the Carathay waiting for Fane!

fuck it, u know what i bet it was Seswathat. the real history of the 1st apocalypse is that Ses joined the Consult, provided the umph to get the Mog Project done and then climbed in the Carapace himself. he instantly regrets it. after being set free by the Heron Spear, he founds the Mandate using his spare heart full of false memories, writes the Sagas, alters the Dunyain commune to his purposes, and waits in the desert for a White Luck Warrior named Fane whom Ses will derail from his appointed task.

BLAM! ok Madness, confirm it!

The Sharmat

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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2016, 01:28:48 am »
What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.

I'd say that what makes Kellhus and Serwe special is they have no passion. The gnostic is based on meaning and the purity of said meaning. Their able to remove everything they associate with their utterals an inutterals, and its pure meaning. Incandescence geometrics, man!
Now we know that Serwe is among Kellhus's passionate children, along with Inrilatas and Kelmomas-Samarmas. So we can't go with this idea anymore. Plus, is their not meaning in passion?

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2016, 05:37:26 am »
They are also not the only ones capable of using the Metagnosis.  The current Grandmaster of the Mandate is mentioned as the first person besides the Aspect-Emperor to successfully utter a Metagnostic Cant.

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« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2016, 05:59:07 pm »
I'm only now reading The False Sun, after reading TGO. Can't believed I missed that.
Wild idea, but I'll drop it as a try.

Titirga is grasping at what shouldn't be grasped. I was immediately thinking about the Aporos and Chorae as Wilshire mentioned so long ago, and not the Daimos.
His mark is described in a remarkably different way than any description of a Mark in any of the books so far, including that of the Inchoroi, Kellhus (at least in the last chapters of TGO, as viewed by Malowebi), Akka or Cleric/Nil'Giccas.
He is very emotional, but not in a Cishaurim way, as far as I read it. The judgement in his voice, as well as the way he looks/gazes, rather parallels another character: I was actually immediately thinking of a comparison with Mimara and her Judging Eye. I remember passages in TGO (maybe already in WLW) where Akka notices differences in her behaviour. Of course this could just as well be her pregnancy hormones and/or the Qirri, but I think it's not caused by those two.

Ever since the "flashback" at Dagliash, I'm looking for more parallels/links and the one between the stories of Titirga and Mimara have one common aspect: A huge hole in the ground, in the form of the Well of Viri where one falls to the depths, his powers failing him (Titirga) and the Great Medial Screw where the other discovers a potential super-power (the revelation of the Chorae as a Tear of God) of which we don't know much yet (Mimara).

In my view, the quote below from The False Sun at least seems to suggest to me Titirga can see more than the Mark:

Quote
A lunatic God… perhaps. The Hells that you think you see. Something… Something adulterate, foul. Something that craves feasting, that hungers with an intensity that can bend the very Ground.”
[...]
Does that not trouble you?” the Hero-Mage pressed. “That you have but one eye!”
Cuts and cuts and cuts...