Journey: Akka (AE), Khellus (PoN) and Thousandfold Thought

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Cüréthañ

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« on: July 24, 2014, 08:42:58 am »
Sorry about all the acronyms below.  Anyway, I thought the "awakening" of Kellhus to Moe's manipulation and TTT might be worthy of discussion in light of some parallels between the series.

Quote from: TTT ch13 p276
He could remember, perfectly, what it had been like those three years past, stepping from the shadow of Ishuäl's Fallow Gate. Countless tracks had fanned out from his feet, leading to countless possible outcomes. But unlike a tree, he could war only in one direction. With every step he murdered alterna­tives, collapsed future after future, walking a line too thin to be marked on any map. For so long he had believed that line, that track, belonged to him, as though his every footfall had been a monstrous decision for which he alone could be called to account. Step after step, annihilating world after possible world, warring until only this moment survived...
But those futures, he now knew, had been murdered long before. The ground he travelled had been Conditioned through and through. At every turn, the probabilities had been summed, the possibilities averaged, the forks impossi­bly predetermined... Even here, standing before Shimeh, he executed but one operation in the skein of another's god­like calculation. Even here, his every decision, his every act, confirmed the dread intent of the Thousandfold Thought.
Thirty years...

Achamian's journey in AE resembles Kellhus' journey in PoN in a lot of ways.
  • They each set out on a quest to penetrate the darkness and discover what kind of force rules the world so that they might master it.
  • Both are determined to betray and sacrifice the lives of all those around them if necessary.
  • Similarly accompanied by crazy-ass psychos, nobles and a mystically important woman.
  • Named prophets at the end of the second novel after facing soul-crushingly bitter victories (Ishual and the death of NG for Akka, the Circumfix and Serwe's death for Kellhus).

Will Akka be 'awakened' by the qirri in the ruins of Ishual and finally realize TTT moves him in TUC before he confronts Kellhus?

Also, the italicized thought in the quote above prompts a crackpot;
Thirty years...
Interestingly, that takes us from Moe's inception of TTT to the time of TUC, which implies Kellhus had a very solid understanding of schedule in place at that stage.

For TSTSNBN, if TTT is still in play somehow at the end of TUC, it might, erm, switch hosts (for want of a better term) from Kellhus to Akka?

After Madness' comments about the set-up of pieces over the two series, I'm interested about other thematic connections between PoN and AE that people might have noticed.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 08:49:51 am by Cüréthañ »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2014, 08:00:20 pm »
Thats some good stuff Curethan, can't say I thought of it in that light until you mentioned it.

If TTT moves to Akka, TSTSNBN will be short. The guy is pretty old as it is, even with the qirri he's got to croke sometime soon. I kind of want him to follow the same track that Kellhus did to his father, and end up killing him through circumstances that the bearer of TTT could not predict. Maybe someone is hunting Akka right now as well, maybe its Mimara, and TTT will skip over Akka and Mimara will bear that cross after she murders him (and, thus, revealing that she is at least 1/2 dunyain, since I don't believe a mortal mine could grasp TTT fully).

But that all kind of makes TTT seem more like a living thing rather than an idea, and I'm not so sure I subscribe to that.

Hmm, what if Achamian comes to the realization that something higher is manipulating his path? Not Kellhus, a dunyain, but a God has come before him and murdered all futures except one.
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Bolivar

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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2014, 09:54:30 pm »
Those parallels are striking and I wouldn't be surprised if Kellhus has engineered events to make Akka more like himself or at least able to see things from his own perspective. I can totally see Kellhus conditioning Akka and Mimara to grasp or carry on TTT, especially if Kellhus does sacrifice himself at the end of TUC as some expect.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2014, 12:56:52 am »
Thanks guys, it was kind of a startling thought when it came to me as well. 

Akka's exile in the wilderness is a close parallel to Ishual too.  Especially when you think of the how they both seek to master the past.
I think there a some fair comparisons to be made between Mimara/Serwe and Mimara/Esmenet too.

@ Wilshire;
I tend to agree about Akka's age.  But we have no idea what type of time-skip, if any, might occur between AE and TSTSNBN.
 
Events in TJE and WLW seem to occur over about 5 months by my estimate (as opposed to the three year timespan of PoN).  Akka has traveled half the breadth of Earwa in this time, reversing Kellhus journey geographically, so he is pretty fit for his age.  Also he could merely become a temporary focus until Maggot or another inherits TTT.

The interesting thing about TTT is that even after Kellhus grasps it, he does no more than fulfill it.  He is not its author or wielder.  You don't need to see it as a living thing (although the text does go to lengths to describe it as such), but it is undeniably independent of its principle actors and progresses in a bifurcating manner (like the tree metaphor that is frequently used to describe the method of dominating circumstance.)  Moeghus was only important within it up until Shimeh, when Kellhus (equipped with the Gnosis and command of the Inrithi) displaces him as its administrator. 

I wonder if Moe saw TTT as a thirty year sequence, or perhaps he could only see the first ten years clearly...

@ Bolivar
I would put money down that Kellhus/TTT has guided Akka along every step just as Moe/TTT did to him.  I'm wondering at what point Akka's journey might hit the kind of probalistic tangle/metaphysical revelation the Kellhus encountered.  Was it Sauglish?
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Zadok

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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 02:05:29 am »
Wow, interesting stuff.  I think Akka has already been "awakened" to the fact that there is a greater power at play, but he believes it's Fate rather than Kellhus/TTT.

Quote
In Marrow, Achamian had mentioned the Coffers the way a trapper baits his snare, as a crude goad meant to drive crude men.  But now...
His lie.  Fate was making his lie true.

His "the Shrial Knights must be punished" moment.  Then right after that

Quote
But this moment, Achamian knew, had already been decided: There were no forks in the road before them.  The Whore was driving them like slaves beaten toward a captor's capital.

I don't think he has enough knowledge of the Dunyain at the moment to put all the pieces together, but he is heading to Ishual...

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 02:54:14 am »
He has also reflected on Kellhus penetrating his tower and Mimara being sent rather than fleeing.
I think it's like his benjuka games against Zin, he is trying to hard and focusing on the stone.
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Muadib Targaryen

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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 03:22:34 am »
I keep coming back to the end of the first series when Kellhus says Akka will kneel before him next time. This suggests to me Kellus has this all planned out.



Cüréthañ

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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 03:25:51 am »
Indeed!
And Kellhus seems to be preparing Proyas for Akka's return.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2014, 02:06:33 pm »
All the pieces, the maddening combinations!

I've pointed out elsewhere that Akka kneeling could be at Kellhus' death. Akka happening upon Kellhus as he is struck down and lays dying on the ground, ala Seswatha/Celmomas. Maybe we'll get another Prophecy, a real one rather than "revelations" he as shown the world born men so far.

It would complete his journey quite nicely, repeating Seswatha's and Kellhus' journey all at once.

Wow, interesting stuff.  I think Akka has already been "awakened" to the fact that there is a greater power at play, but he believes it's Fate rather than Kellhus/TTT.

Quote
In Marrow, Achamian had mentioned the Coffers the way a trapper baits his snare, as a crude goad meant to drive crude men.  But now...
His lie.  Fate was making his lie true.

His "the Shrial Knights must be punished" moment.  Then right after that

Quote
But this moment, Achamian knew, had already been decided: There were no forks in the road before them.  The Whore was driving them like slaves beaten toward a captor's capital.

I don't think he has enough knowledge of the Dunyain at the moment to put all the pieces together, but he is heading to Ishual...
Great stuff in there Zadok. I like how Bakker repeats lines and phrases that could me something, or not, but I don't feel beaten over the head with it.
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MG

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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2014, 10:45:00 pm »
Curethane this is a wonderful reading!  May I hazard a guess?  Akka's journey mirrors Kellhus' journey from TTT so ...

- Akka meets Aurang, momentarily possessing Mimara's body
- Akka gains a cool new power like when Kellhus gained sorcery
- Akka is triumphant and universally celebrated at the end in a surprising way
- Akka's victory becomes the launch pad for a conquest that rewrites the world and sets the stage for the next book (like the Unification Wars)
- Akka meets his father and kills him
- Kellhus learns something about Akka that makes Kellhus hate Akka
- Kellhus loses a fight with a demon
- Kellhus repudiates his wife, his schools, his faith, and his friend

The Sharmat

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« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2014, 12:18:10 am »
I still subscribe to my personal crackpot theory that the Thousandfold Thought is bullshit that Moenghus made up to manipulate Kellhus and that Kellhus only thinks he's grasped it.