How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?

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MrGanondorf

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« on: August 22, 2014, 10:39:17 am »
That spear could well be long gone and it would make a nice moment for Achamian to come across it's broken fragments, the realization scroll slowly through his soul.  Surely this is a question that Kellhus has considered!  Whatever his secret plans are, he's got to be prepared for contingencies.  Possibilities:

1. Drop the earth out from under it.  Killing Mog like Titirga.  Seems unlikely/anticlimactic.  Would it even work?  Damn thing might keep flying or just zoom out of the hole.  Maybe you could crush it closing the earth back up?  Meta-gnosis/gnostic or quya concerts could make a big hole in the ground.

2. Meta-daimos.  The carapace is supposed to have 11 chorae on it BUT...Achamian suggested that chorae have limited effect against some level of intrusion from the Outside when he was thinking that Mimara should not have been able to dispatch the unholy Seal of Cil-Aujus.

3. Big hammers.  Kellhus can just make a dozen Yalgrotta-kin fly into the air and smash the nimil case with blunt force.  The 11 chorae might not have an effect unless you touch them in which case Kellhus would just continuously refloat those who were momentarily unmagicked.  Does not work if the whirlwind is itself an unmagic field.

MOAR?

Francis Buck

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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2014, 12:22:54 pm »
My bets are on the Judging Eye, or some sort of crazy metaphysical loophole Kellhus figured out twenty years ago (which may or may not involve using the No-God to his own advantage).

I personally doubt we'll ever see the Heron Spear again. I think it was only ever meant to serve as 1.) A plot-device for "killing" the No-God in the backstory of the series without having to reveal much of anything so far as what the No-God actually is, and 2.) A general red-herring for the series. Unless a big part of the latter books involve the finding/acquisition/recharging of the Spear, then it's hard to see how it could work in a way that didn't feel anti-climactic, at least to me. Instakill BFG is kind of a lame way to defeat something like the No-God (I don't think it was ever even "killed" in the first place, just temporarily incapacitated). It's okay for the backstory, but would feel like a cop-out if the same thing is done again.

Wic

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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2014, 04:46:24 pm »
Holy jeepers, what if you launched the NG into the Outside via a portal?  Would that be like matter and anti-matter touching?  Would it be crushed by the sheer weight of will that seems to be the source of power and influence there?  Could it be isolated in the mundane world?

I think that, whatever the mechanism of the HS, it is a purely mundane, physical effect, and that it is still capable of being destroyed in such a manner.  That's why they didn't release it onto the battlefield until they were desperate, that's why they have a whirlwind protecting it and having it float high in the sky (I think I'm presuming that last one...).

Hell, maybe Kell's been developing cannons.  Even if they didn't have gunpowder, they could surely launch things by magical means.

Garet Jax

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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2014, 05:07:02 pm »
My money is also TJE being the best way to actually "kill" the No God.  The god(s) couldn't be still be blind to the No God if (t)he(y) is/are looking right at it.


Also, Kellhus uses a whirlwind for protection in Shimeh... That is mighty No-God-Esque of him.

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2014, 05:17:25 am »
@ FB - I agree that the HS is likely gone forever, but I think it will still be an important bit of TUC.  Akka realizing its gone will be good.  Or maybe Sorweel finds its broken fragments in Ishterebinth's basement.

@ FB & GJ - D'oh!  How did I forget about the Judging Eye?  I guess sometimes I'm thinking of the carapace and what Mimara did to the unholy seal as choric things, so they would be allied and not opposed.  I don't know.

@ Wic - what a novel solution!  Get rid of Mog and the Hundred in one fell swoop!  Humanity is free!  Does that mean its definitely not going to happen? :(

@ GJ - oooohhhhh, i like that parallel of Kellhus in Shimeh/whirlwind, nice!

The Sharmat

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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 02:01:11 am »
I imagine Achamian and the Mandate have long since written off the Heron-Spear as lost. If they hadn't, they'd have spent time looking for it, since it's the only weapon known to be able to harm the No-God. It disappeared when the Scylvendi sacked the city it was in. If the Scylvendi Memorialists preserved the circumstances of their God's defeat, then it's likely the Scylvendi recognized the Heron Spear for what it was, and destroyed it to avenge their God. It's just a laser gun. It's quite destructible.

And even if it hadn't been destroyed, it's been two thousand years. Who can even say if its power source still works? It was the very last weapon of the Inchoroi. It could have finally failed.

As or Kellhus definitely having a plan to deal with the No-God...I'm not so sure that's the case. The entirety of his plan seems to hinge on getting to Golgotterath before the No-God is reborn. There would seem to be no other option, and no way to search for other weaknesses without capturing a very high-ranking member of the Consult who would actually have knowledge of what the No-God actually is. The Skin-Spies are not given knowledge like that. They're given precious little knowledge at all. Moenghus had been working on some for a decade, and had very little information to hare with Kellhus (though it's possible Kellhus had let Moenghus die before he could divulge all he knew).

Further, Cnaiur notes when talking with the Skin-Spies that their knowledge of themselves was curiously limited. They described themselves as servants of the Inverse Fire, but seemed incapable of saying what the Inverse Fire actually is.

I think this is part of the readership's consistent overestimation of Kellhus. The Great Ordeal is Kellhus' great gambit. This is his plan, and while I'm sure he has plenty of tricks in store, they're in service of the goal we see, not some hidden one.

Note that I don't blame anyone for overestimating Kellhus, mind. Almost all point of view characters, including Kellhus himself, view him as virtually infallible. The only exceptions are Moenghus and, much later, Maithanet. I believe Bakker is deliberately distilling a sense of Godhood about Kellhus, while also seeding the books with hints that said Godhood is false. They're small things. Kellhus doing something so simple as tripping in the chapter when he meets Moenghus, for example. But for the attentive reader, they're there. And I suspect we'll all marvel at the hints on  re-read after we see what they're building too.

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2014, 12:54:14 am »
But what if the NG is created The Sarmat? What then? I think that might be cause for a whole series... Either TSA or TSTSNBN. Trying to find out how to stop the consult/NG post Great Ordeal failure would make for some interesting story developments I think.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2014, 01:11:08 am »
Yeah then I think we're getting another decade or so of horror between Unholy Consult followed by the final series.

EkyannusIII

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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2014, 04:22:05 pm »
Kellhus can almost certainly reconstruct the Heron Spear, it's principles are simply the extension of the technology used to burn ants with a magnifying lens.  I am somewhat disappointed that the only new war tech we have gotten to see are some unspecified siege engines mentioned in TJE.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

The Sharmat

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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 08:50:52 pm »
I don't think we can really say that for sure about the Heron Spear. It could be any manner of projected energy weapon. And even Kellhus doesn't have the intellect to advance multiple required fields of science from iron age to post space age in 20 years. Modern optics couldn't reconstruct the Heron Spear, and they're the result of centuries of advances in instrumentation and material science and information processing. Kellhus doesn't even have the concept of a logic gate.

Crtha

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« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2014, 11:43:26 pm »
Modern optics couldn't reconstruct the Heron Spear, and they're the result of centuries of advances in instrumentation and material science and information processing. Kellhus doesn't even have the concept of a logic gate.

I disagree.
Kellhus has clearly mastered most pure mathematics including induction. The gnosis clearly turns on mathematics.

However, when vocally balancing an equation or rendering a proof causes shit to blow up or the ability to manifest illusions, how does one progress to discovering electromagnetism et al.
I doubt Newton would be known for defining the laws of physics and inventing calculus if his experiments and research on alchemy and prophecy had panned out.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2014, 12:01:35 am »
Being able to perform calculus doesn't mean you can build a laser. Some things aren't going to be apparent from pure mathematical principles.

Crtha

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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2014, 12:19:27 am »
Yes, quite. 
My point is why you would even want to build a laser when just expressing the math is enough to generate laser effects.
Heck, even writing down the theory behind thermodynamics might cause an explosion.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2014, 02:41:34 am »
Is that what the Gnosis does? I envisioned it more as pure math and pure logic than scientific theories used to model observed reality. I mean, the Gnosis is also called "the Abstractions".

Crtha

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« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2014, 04:19:57 am »
Just my opinion, but;

Well, abstract math generally arises from understanding phenomena.
Once you start generating energy and burning and cutting its not really abstract any more, is it? 
Sorcery comes from using abstracted knowledge of meaning to leverage material change, just as scientific theory does.  It's just a lot faster and more imprecise because its driven by subjective perception.

Kellhus' development of the meta-gnosis and secondary usage of sorcery (i.e. using debris to deflect chorae) shows innovative applications and extensions of the gnostic abstractions by development and application of theory, no?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 04:29:49 am by Crtha »
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.