How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2014, 04:37:08 am »
I'm arguing that the application and development of Gnostic theory does not necessarily overlap with physics. We're working with another set of rules here. There's a reason the Tekne was the dominant force in Inchoroi society prior to their arrival in Earwa. We have no reason to believe Kellhus has mathematically derived basic concepts like the doppler effect or other optical principles that would probably be necessary to repair the technological artifact that is the Heron Spear.

Now if you're saying he could duplicate its effects using sorcery: sure, probably. Of course, that would be subject to negation by Chorae so the whole point of the Heron Spear then becomes moot.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2014, 05:47:49 am »
Actually, I was off on a tangent from your statement that Kellhus doesn't have the understanding of basic discrete mathematics (i.e. logic gates).

He might be able to reverse engineer the function of the Heron Spear and fill in the gaps of technological know-how with sorcerous artifice (e.g. using geometric theorems to create a replacement photonic crystal or something), idk.  I wasn't really intending to go that way, speculatively. ;) 

I do think that second hand effects of sorcery manipulating the mundane would be key if Mog walks and needs to be destroyed without the heron spear.  Like dropping an asteroid on him or something.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2014, 06:11:25 pm »
Like dropping an asteroid on him or something.
Kellhus=Sephiroth :P
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2014, 05:24:14 pm »
if mog is resurrected inside the ark, maybe kellhus would attempt to lock it in the ark to buy time to find a more permanent solution

MrGanondorf

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citizensnips

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« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2016, 10:36:47 pm »
I feel like I missed something, I always see the Heron Spear referred to as a laser weapon. Where does that come from?

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2016, 11:16:27 pm »
I feel like I missed something, I always see the Heron Spear referred to as a laser weapon. Where does that come from?

hi citizenships!  nice profile pic :)

this is all i know about it--from the first chapter in TWP, Akka is recalling Seswatha and Anaxophus

"A thread of silver light, swaying across the spiraling heights, flashing across the Carapace. A crack that
made ears bleed. Everywhere, raining debris. The anguished wail of innumerable inhuman throats."

it def could be something other than a laserish thingy, i guess, i'm just not sure what.  i wonder if it's it all significant that the Heron Spear beam is silver like Mimara's haloes?

H

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« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2016, 11:07:17 am »
I feel like I missed something, I always see the Heron Spear referred to as a laser weapon. Where does that come from?

hi citizenships!  nice profile pic :)

this is all i know about it--from the first chapter in TWP, Akka is recalling Seswatha and Anaxophus

"A thread of silver light, swaying across the spiraling heights, flashing across the Carapace. A crack that
made ears bleed. Everywhere, raining debris. The anguished wail of innumerable inhuman throats."

it def could be something other than a laserish thingy, i guess, i'm just not sure what.  i wonder if it's it all significant that the Heron Spear beam is silver like Mimara's haloes?

Also, this from the glossary:

Quote
Overmatched by the Inchoroi and their weapons of light, the Nonmen of Viri were driven back with horrendous losses.
...
Cû’jara-Cinmoi himself struck down Sil, and wrested from him his great weapon, Suörgil, “Shining Death,” which Men in a latter age would call the Heron Spear.

Putting all that together, we figure it is (was?) a laser of some sort.

EDIT: Good question and welcome citizensnips!
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Blackstone

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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2016, 11:53:27 pm »
I think one of two ways:
1) Kellhus makes it into the Ark and finds renderings of the Nail of Heaven, which is indeed a mother ship the Inch can't control with the damaged Ark. He then teleports himself to the mother ship, finds a storage locker full of charged plasma cannons, and teleports back. Problem solved.

2) Much more likely, because I believe Kellhus will be the final soul needed to resurrect the No-God and he will therefore be unavailable to save the world, Mimara will invert the chorae on the carapace, causing the No-God to implode. The implosion will also have the added benefit of keeping a new Indigo Plague from spreading across the Ordeal. This will probably happen in the last series because I think the UC will end with Kellhus's death and the No-God's return.
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H

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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2016, 01:31:32 pm »
I think one of two ways:
1) Kellhus makes it into the Ark and finds renderings of the Nail of Heaven, which is indeed a mother ship the Inch can't control with the damaged Ark. He then teleports himself to the mother ship, finds a storage locker full of charged plasma cannons, and teleports back. Problem solved.

2) Much more likely, because I believe Kellhus will be the final soul needed to resurrect the No-God and he will therefore be unavailable to save the world, Mimara will invert the chorae on the carapace, causing the No-God to implode. The implosion will also have the added benefit of keeping a new Indigo Plague from spreading across the Ordeal. This will probably happen in the last series because I think the UC will end with Kellhus's death and the No-God's return.

I don't think they'll need to kill the No-God because I'm not really convinced that the Consult is prepared to resurrect him.  I know we've been vaguely told this, but I'm not really buying it.

On Kellhus, well, if we follow the vague Dune parallels, I think each series is named for each disposition of Kellhus.  First a Prince of Nothing, then an Aspect Emperor.  I think the last is something like God-Emperor, or something with a better ring to it.  That's probably something for a different thread though...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Blackstone

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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2016, 03:15:08 pm »
I think one of two ways:
1) Kellhus makes it into the Ark and finds renderings of the Nail of Heaven, which is indeed a mother ship the Inch can't control with the damaged Ark. He then teleports himself to the mother ship, finds a storage locker full of charged plasma cannons, and teleports back. Problem solved.

2) Much more likely, because I believe Kellhus will be the final soul needed to resurrect the No-God and he will therefore be unavailable to save the world, Mimara will invert the chorae on the carapace, causing the No-God to implode. The implosion will also have the added benefit of keeping a new Indigo Plague from spreading across the Ordeal. This will probably happen in the last series because I think the UC will end with Kellhus's death and the No-God's return.

 I know we've been vaguely told this, but I'm not really buying it.


By Scott? Does anyone know where this is?
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H

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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2016, 03:36:19 pm »
By Scott? Does anyone know where this is?

No, in the books, we are told that:

Quote
“The Consult, you realized, were labouring to save their souls. And what was more, if your captives could be believed, they were drawing near the end of their millennial task.”

Presumably that means the resurrection of the No-God, but I have my doubts.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2016, 01:29:45 am »
I think one of two ways:
1) Kellhus makes it into the Ark and finds renderings of the Nail of Heaven, which is indeed a mother ship the Inch can't control with the damaged Ark. He then teleports himself to the mother ship, finds a storage locker full of charged plasma cannons, and teleports back. Problem solved.

2) Much more likely, because I believe Kellhus will be the final soul needed to resurrect the No-God and he will therefore be unavailable to save the world, Mimara will invert the chorae on the carapace, causing the No-God to implode. The implosion will also have the added benefit of keeping a new Indigo Plague from spreading across the Ordeal. This will probably happen in the last series because I think the UC will end with Kellhus's death and the No-God's return.

#1 - That's a really convenient way to get rid of Mog!

#2 - This is a fascinating possibility.  Mimara did her thing when she was holding the little Chorae--will she need to embrace the Carapace to implode it?  That would be a cool scene.  Maybe someone flies her up there in a chariot and she hugs it until it cracks and underneath it's ... BAKKER HIMSELF

W00tard

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« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2016, 06:05:24 pm »
Hey All--I've been a long time lurker both here and at the asoiaf forum...  I don't know if this has been discussed before--certainly not that I've seen.  As this is at least tangentially related to the discussion of Kellhus reconstructing the heron spear, it seemed as appropriate a place to put it as any...

Do we know what the technological sophistication of the Dunyain actually is?  During one of the flashback scenes I seem to recall that Kellhus thinks to himself that the Neuropuncture technique that allows the Dunyain failures to retain some use (in the face room) was developed something like 300 years before.  If that is the case, then it demonstrates a similar level of medical know-how to modern medicine ~300 years prior to the events of the second apocalypse.

Also, given what we know of his training in logic--I strongly suspect that the Dunyain are technologically far more sohisticated than we have yet been shown.  This seems likely to be by design as well--if these are analogues to the first and second foundation.  Additionally, wouldn't the "mundane" development of non-sorcerous weapons be best achieved by those who operate in the absence of sorcery.  Perhaps that's why the Dunyain chiseled the runes off the walls...  Just a thought.
 

Wilshire

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« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2016, 06:16:32 pm »
Comes down to need, I think. There is not invention without necessity - this was the lesson of the first foundation.

Could they ahve derived the axioms of physics, electricity, and down along that line of reasonaing, AIs? Probably. But would they bother?

Remember that Kellhus seemed to have never seen the maths taught to him by Achamian during the Holy War. It would be hard to derive computational logistics without math.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 06:19:16 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.