Crazy Ass Speculation Thread

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Simas Polchias

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« Reply #135 on: March 31, 2015, 09:14:25 pm »
Have you read Dune?
No. Herbert & Pratchett are in my "emergency ration" of literature, which should be spend thriftily.

Wilshire

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« Reply #136 on: April 03, 2015, 05:53:42 pm »
Have you read Dune?
No. Herbert & Pratchett are in my "emergency ration" of literature, which should be spend thriftily.
lol please explain to me how that works
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Simas Polchias

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« Reply #137 on: April 04, 2015, 10:02:41 pm »
lol please explain to me how that works
Much like postponing something nice or tasty! In a world of credit systems and easily accessible (thus short-lived) pleasures one should know how to craft himself a true reward, even if it made of silly deprivation.

Wilshire

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« Reply #138 on: April 07, 2015, 12:38:14 pm »
Oh ok, that kind of makes sense. I was thinking you had it packed away in a  "doomsday bag". Food, cloths, and Herbert to get you through the next apocalypse. Your explanation seems far more reasonable :P
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Coldbow

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« Reply #139 on: April 27, 2015, 02:25:09 pm »
If we understand the Dunyain goal of a truly self moving soul, I feel like the final barriers to this goal would be Time and as a consequence, Death.  Kellhus has already demonstrated the ability to bend space with the gnosis, so the bending of time isn't outside of the bounds of possibility.

Let's assume the Incu-Holoinas, the Inchoroi Arc, is a time-travel device as Simas Polshias guessed on the first page of this thread.  And instead of a foreign enemy, we think of the No-God as a decendant of Kellhus.  A Dunyain who has literally come before himself.

It would follow that the Inchoroi and Consult are the evolution of the Dunyain domination of men.  Two of the strongest levers that Kellhus uses against man are belief and sexual desire.  Think about his rise to a deity in the holy war and ALWAYS keeping beautiful woman at his side (Serwe/Esmi) to appeal to man's base insticts.  He exercises domination of soul and flesh.

The Inchoroi and Consult are just an extension of this to the extreme.  The Inchoroi are driven by their zeal to reduce the number of souls in the world for their salvation.  And the Skin Spies  bent only towards sexual gratification.  Each of these are the levers of man, magnified.

Add to this the Inchoroi ability to induce immortality in Non-Men and we can assume the No-God has achieved immortality as well.  So after conquering time and death, why come back in time to march against the world?

We see the reason in the White Luck Warrior; The Gods are a threat to the Dunyain.  The assumption here is that the No-God cannot over-come them in his timeline and has traveled to the past to clear the Gods out of the path of the Dunyain.  I could speculate further on this, but let's continue.

So how do you reach the Gods?

In this, I think, No-God is aptly named.  Logic and reason destroys passion and belief.  In an attempt to draw out the Gods, the No-God murders millions in the first apocalypse.  As far as we know, the God's did not intervene.  Either they were intimidated or simply did not care enough about the loss.  The No-God had to re-asses.  If outright destruction did not move the Gods to act, he had to work in a way that did.

If we accept the idea that the No-God is an advanced Dunyain then we assume that everything that has happened since the first apocalypse is according to plan.  The Inchoroi breaking the will of the Non-Men, paving the way for man and thus Dunyain to come to the fore.  The first apocalypse culling all knowledge of the powerful logic-based gnosis down to one school who cannot share it due to the will of Seswatha's soul.  The monks sent to Ishual (dangerously close to Golgotterath) to set up a school for the Dunyain to train untouched for thousands of years.  Sranc finally attacking Ishual, releasing the Dunyain into the world.  The memories of Seswatha that communicate the idea of a threat from Golgotterath.  Kellhus' patricide when his father was not strong enough to unite the world.  With each lever, the No-God sets Kellhus up to gather the world's power like a lode stone.  Why?

To attract the ire of the God's.  We know in WLW, Kellhus is the target of Yatwer.  If Kellhus knows this (or will learn this), the No-God knows this and will use it to reach the Gods.  In fact, the No-God set up the same exact circumstance in the first apolcalypse with Anasurimbor Celmomas II.  An Anasurimbor leading the world in the Great Ordeal against Golgotterath.  Just like Kellhus.  For some reason the God's did not intervene as they do with Kellhus.  Apparently there can be no substitute.  He must use a Dunyain to lure out the Gods.

By feigning defeat by the Heron Spear of his own making and unleashing the true Dunyain, the No-God starts on a course to reign in Gods using Kellhus.  He must work through his past to secure his future.  He must dominate what comes before.

Additionally, if the No-God set in motion the Dunyain, did he not author his own beginning?  By setting up a dependent time-loop, the No-God is the only self moving soul.  Is this why Kellhus says the he is more than Dunyain?  Why else would the No-God reach out to Kellhus?

If you made it this far, what do you think?

Wilshire

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« Reply #140 on: April 27, 2015, 03:44:06 pm »
Welcome to TSA, Coldbow. Great first post. Probably should have been its own thread ;)

Seems pretty self consistent, though I dislike 'the no-god' being the one who orchestrates everything. It didn't seem like a thing of intellect.

I'd be more on board if Aurax was the Dunyain line, and Aurang just his pawn. A ruling caste of Inchoroi that knew the plan, while all the others are ignorant and fed false information, as some believe was done with Kellhus.

Or if those in-the-know ended up dying through a simple mistake, some arrogance on their part upon 'landing' on Earwa, and the brothers dont even know the goal they are working towards anymore.

Regardless, this is a great theory, imo. The Inchoroi being some future dunyain's plan that leads to their own creation, being their own proceeding darkness, thus conquering it. Even without the gods it would seem they'd need to come back in time to set that up. The Gods not responding in full to the first apocalypse just adds fuel to the fire. No-God seems like more of a tool than anything else, why did you pick it specifically and not some other force?
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H

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« Reply #141 on: April 27, 2015, 03:45:35 pm »
If you made it this far, what do you think?

Interesting, but I can't buy it.  I still regard the No-God as a creation, so the idea that it's a self-moving soul does not fit.  I do believe he was made from some special type of soul, but that perhaps that is the "up-side down soul."
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Coldbow

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« Reply #142 on: April 28, 2015, 05:40:58 am »
That's a great point.  It could be Aurax/Aurang that is the Dunyain.  I would almost like that better, in a way.  As if, unable to destroy them, they roped their (No) God to their own purpose.  We may see Kellhus do that as well.

The only issue I see, then, is why the first apocalypse?  If the Gods will be roped by Kellhus, no need to draw them out.  If their goal is to reduce the souls to 144,000, how does that fit?  Is that the limit of sure control of the Dunyain?  12 x 12,000 disciples?  One Dunyain per world?  Possibly.  Kellhus already commands more than that, though.

Also, why would the No-God/Aurax initiate the Ishual prerogative before the control of the world is complete?  There had to be a reason to initiate Ishual.  The culling of the world's souls couldn't be the reason?...Could it?  Maybe this is the way they prevent the disaster of the first apocalypse, by setting in motion their destiny, knowing that Kellhus would bring them the world.  Hence the No-God reaching out to Kellhus on the circumfix.  Maybe.

But why the desperate questioning of "Who are the Dunyain?"  Those glimpses bother me more than anything else.  Unless only the No-God is aware of the Dunyain.  The Consult acting antagonist to set up the Kellhus/Celmomas circumstance I can understand, but the questioning by the Inchoroi in the north doesn't fit the narrative very well.

That was why I assumed it was the No-God that was Dunyain.  The Inchoroi are ignorant tools, the extensions of their belief, bound to destroy as many souls as possible as long as it serves the No-God's end.  Don't read into what their beliefs are, only what goal their beliefs achieve.  Think Shimeh vs. Moenghus.

I also compared Kellhus' trackless soul to the white-luck warriors one-track soul and assumed the Gods are the antithisis to the Dunyain.  Celmomas fit the historical framework for bringing the Gods to field but that failed.  Then it was an attempt at attrition across the world.  When that failed, there was no other choice but to actually use a Dunyain, Kellhus.  Hence the initiation of Ishual directly after the first apocalypse.

H-What if Mimara finds no mark on Kellhus' soul?  What if the marking of one's soul requires belief, and a lack of belief means a lack of a soul?  That is something the God's can't abide and why the Celmomas' circumstance failed to draw the gods the first time.  An upside down soul, crafted himself....

H

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« Reply #143 on: April 28, 2015, 11:40:59 am »
That's a great point.  It could be Aurax/Aurang that is the Dunyain.  I would almost like that better, in a way.  As if, unable to destroy them, they roped their (No) God to their own purpose.  We may see Kellhus do that as well.

The only issue I see, then, is why the first apocalypse?  If the Gods will be roped by Kellhus, no need to draw them out.  If their goal is to reduce the souls to 144,000, how does that fit?  Is that the limit of sure control of the Dunyain?  12 x 12,000 disciples?  One Dunyain per world?  Possibly.  Kellhus already commands more than that, though.

Well, the number 144,000 is essentially arbitrary, in the sense that that is just the number.  Why do they get the results they want at that (really any) number?  I think it is connected to how the Inside informs the Outside.  I think that at that "low" level of souls, judgement isn't collected enough to effect a soul's journey through the Outside.  Alternatively, perhaps they have something that can effect the Outside, yet can only exert a certain amount of influence.  144,000 souls worth of "force" would then be the amount this thing can "exert."

Also, why would the No-God/Aurax initiate the Ishual prerogative before the control of the world is complete?  There had to be a reason to initiate Ishual.  The culling of the world's souls couldn't be the reason?...Could it?  Maybe this is the way they prevent the disaster of the first apocalypse, by setting in motion their destiny, knowing that Kellhus would bring them the world.  Hence the No-God reaching out to Kellhus on the circumfix.  Maybe.

Well, I'm still not sold on the No-God actually having agency.  I've said since they earliest days that it is my feeling that the No-God is not some "master-mind" or even any sort of actual leader.  I believe that the No-God is just another thing of the Tekné, just like Sranc or Bashrag.  If that really was the No-God speaking to Kellhus, I think it's because like a pool of water, constantly seeking a way to "reach out" since it is trapped Outside.  I think in the moments where Kellhus heard the No-God, it was because his soul was open.  Like (I think it was) Akka had said, each soul is like a pin-prick though to the Outside.  I think in those moments his soul yawned and so was open to influence.  Or perhaps not.

But why the desperate questioning of "Who are the Dunyain?"  Those glimpses bother me more than anything else.  Unless only the No-God is aware of the Dunyain.  The Consult acting antagonist to set up the Kellhus/Celmomas circumstance I can understand, but the questioning by the Inchoroi in the north doesn't fit the narrative very well.

That was why I assumed it was the No-God that was Dunyain.  The Inchoroi are ignorant tools, the extensions of their belief, bound to destroy as many souls as possible as long as it serves the No-God's end.  Don't read into what their beliefs are, only what goal their beliefs achieve.  Think Shimeh vs. Moenghus.

I still can't buy that the Dûnyain were somehow made by the Consult.  I think that the opposite is more probable, that Seswatha created the order.  How would they have known of them?  Perhaps I am misunderstanding your contention, but it seems perfectly plausible that they would be ignorant to the Dûnyain.

H-What if Mimara finds no mark on Kellhus' soul?  What if the marking of one's soul requires belief, and a lack of belief means a lack of a soul?  That is something the God's can't abide and why the Celmomas' circumstance failed to draw the gods the first time.  An upside down soul, crafted himself....

That I am not sure on.  I don't think that Kellhus lacks a soul.  I think perhaps Kellhus' soul is special somehow, perhaps upside-down as well, or perhaps something else.

I'm not trying to shoot you down mind  you, I'm just throwing my own ideas out there too.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Coldbow

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« Reply #144 on: April 29, 2015, 02:33:00 am »
All good points.  I was making arguments reinforcing the idea that it had to be the No God that was a Dunyain due to the fact of the Inchoroi not knowing of them.  And their not knowing serving no additional purpose.  The Consult could have been working blindly under the Dunyain No God to corral Kellhus to Golgotterath to initiate the circumstances leading to the intervention of the Gods.  Since in this exercise we assume the No God is from the future, he knows the conditions that bring about the God's involvement, tries to recreate that in the past with Celmomas but fails, presumably because Cel is not Dunyain and has a soul.  The No-God tries a killing spree, that fails to bring the God's too.  And so initiates Ishual.  Kellhus having no soul to redeem AND leading the world would infuriate the Gods, I would think.

I'm definitely not trying to convince anyone that this IS the case.  It was just a speculation exercise to see if I could carry it all the way through and I'm satisfied enough with the answer to move on.

It would feel too shallow if everything that happened was made irrelevant in the end by a much bigger story-arc hiding behind a curtain.  And only so you could say the Dunyain created themselves.  Feels like a lot of work for a one-liner.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 02:49:18 am by Coldbow »

Hirtius/Pansa

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« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2015, 07:06:11 am »
Does anyone have their TAE books on them that could map out the amount of time that passes through both of those novels?  I was bored, and only own physical copies of PON.

TDTCB ~18 months from  Late Autumn 4109 - Late Spring 4111
TWP     ~9 months from Late Spring 4111 - Late Winter 4112
TTT      ~2 months from Late Winter 4112 - Spring 4112

TJE  ?
WLW ?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 08:06:47 am by Hirtius/Pansa »

MG

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« Reply #146 on: May 02, 2015, 11:10:05 pm »
the method of creating the no-god is tricking yatwer into taking a corporeal form and then trapping her in the carapace

MSJ

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« Reply #147 on: May 04, 2015, 02:34:06 am »
The Judging Eye~Autumn 19 New Imperial year (4131 Year-of-the-Tusk) to Spring 20 New Imperial year (4132 Year-of-the-Tusk)

The White-Luck Warrior~Spring 20 New Imperial year (4132 Year-of-the-Tusk) to Late Summer 20 New Imperial year (4132 Year-of-the-Tusk)

So, only about year......
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Bolivar

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« Reply #148 on: May 04, 2015, 03:09:58 am »
I love the theory, Coldbow, some parts of it remind me a little of Hyperion. The time travel, I'm not so sure about, that stuff is so tricky I kind of don't want Bakker to go there. At the same time, I could totally see that within Kellhus' abilities.

I definitely ascribe to the Consult and the Dunayin being connected - both begin with the axiom that life is mechanical. My personal crackpot is that the Inchoroi needed a way to rediscover the lost principles of the Tekne, the scientific study of cause and effect. They couldn't do it on Earwa, given how magic is real and belief dominates every culture. The only way to do it was to seal off a group of people, convince them magic isn't real, religion is only a tool of control, and compel them to master cause and effect for thousands of years. I'm starting to think the No-God's constant questions suggest that it was a failed prototype and the Dunyain program aims to produce a soul who can fully control the carapace. This crosses over to the Westeros thread but I wonder if this is why during Celmomas and Seswatha's Benjuka game, when he talks about building Ishual, he makes a move that seemed like an opportunity but turned into travesty - he was building a refuge but it became the mechanism for the Consult's ultimate victory. The only inconsistency with all this is that Moenghus' statements at the end of TTT suggests the Dunyain are a kind of religious order instead of a purely scientific one. Their goal is a spiritual one, to unlock/achieve the free will and meaning that most people take as a given.

I'm still not sure what to make of the gods' intercession in the Aspect Emperor trilogy. I'm inclined to think Kellhus engineered the opportunity for Yatwer to manifest in the way she has. Their absence from the first trilogy makes me think that the Inrithi gods never existed in the way their followers think but something Kellhus has done behind the scenes has caused all this stuff to happen in the second trilogy. Not sure if some of this is repetitive and I've already laid some of this out before...

MG

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« Reply #149 on: May 05, 2015, 02:09:41 am »
Achamian is possessed by Gin'yursis who is making his way back to Golgotterath for revenge on the Consult.  Mog and co attacked Cil-Aujus because they knew that Gin'yursis (ex-consult super agent) was the only one who could stand up to the Consult's forces (which he did).  Gin'yursis wasn't so much overcome by treachery as by fatigue.  Now he will overwhelm the Consult in his form as the Seal of Hell when Mimara opens the 'gate.'

By stopping Mog and wiping out the Consult, Gin'yursis hopes to purify his soul and ascend to the heavens.