*If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...

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profgrape

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« on: November 17, 2014, 06:28:29 pm »
I know this has been discussed (and possibly debunked) before -- apologies in advance forBut I wanted to revisit the idea that Khellus is behind Akka's NC dreams. 

In the TUC Ishual excerpt, Mimara specifically comments on the timing of the dreams.  And I wholeheartedly agree with lockesnow's comment here that RSB isn't going to throw out a statement like this unless it's important.

The "timing" suggestion led many of us (I can't be the only right, at least) to go over each of both series' dreams with a fine-toothed comb.  And those that did probably came away with the same conclusion as me: PON's Seswatha dreams had little if any correlation to the events of the series, AA's Nau-Cayuti's dreams do. 

Specifically, the Nau-Cayuti dreams tend to act as "that which comes before" for Akka, pushing him to act.  Combine that with the traveller's visit to the Skin Eaters in TJE prologue and Mimara running away to find Akka, the whole thing starts to feel incredibly... Conditioned. 

In true No-God fashion, I have only questions at this point.  Assuming that Khellus is behind the well-timed NC dreams:

1) What is he after?

2) How did Khellus discovered what really happened to NC?  Or is all just an elaborate lie to push Akka toward the answer to 1)?

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2014, 03:34:13 pm »
If yes,

Then Kellhus is trying to help Akka along the way. He is goading him to continue to Ishual. The way is far and arduous, and since it seems like Kellhus wants Akka to find Ishual, then its likely another crutch for the old man.


I do disagree, though, that the PoN dreams are less connected to the timing of events. The only example I can come up with right now is in TDTCB just before Kellhus arrives on scene, Akka dreams the night before of the Celmoman Prophesy. The very next day, the Harbinger comes. The POVs are split and separated more, and I think the timing of the dreams and what they portend might be more obfuscated in PoN, but the meanings are still there.
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profgrape

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« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2014, 05:35:21 pm »
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Then Kellhus is trying to help Akka along the way. He is goading him to continue to Ishual. The way is far and arduous, and since it seems like Kellhus wants Akka to find Ishual, then its likely another crutch for the old man.

Agreed, all signs point toward Ishual being the destination.  If the TUC excerpt dream is any indication, the HS seems like the most likely purpose for the whole thing.  Although I also wonder if Akka is only an escort for Mimara. 

Either way, pushing Akka into doing it makes some sort of sense as it's extremely unlikely that the Consult would suspect that his actions would lead back to Khellus. 

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I do disagree, though, that the PoN dreams are less connected to the timing of events. The only example I can come up with right now is in TDTCB just before Kellhus arrives on scene, Akka dreams the night before of the Celmoman Prophesy. The very next day, the Harbinger comes. The POVs are split and separated more, and I think the timing of the dreams and what they portend might be more obfuscated in PoN, but the meanings are still there.

Good point.  I always thought the timing of Akka'a Celmoman Prophecy dream and Khellus' arrival was dramatic license.  But it's also a strong counterexample to my conclusion on the timing of PON's dreams.

Do we know whether Mandati share a common "dream schedule"?  Meaning, when Akka has the Cel dream, do all Mandati have it as well?


Wilshire

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« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2014, 05:45:21 pm »
That is the other option. I still think the end of TTT "the next time you are before me you will kneel" has significance, but Mimara also appears to be very important. Him getting her to Ishual is very likely.



I don't think they do, but I have no proof. We know, at least, that the intensity of the dreams seems to be shared, based on Nautzera's commentary to Akka. This might point to them having the same dreams, but not necessarily. For some reason I think they all dream different dreams.
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profgrape

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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2014, 07:58:35 pm »
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I don't think they do, but I have no proof. We know, at least, that the intensity of the dreams seems to be shared, based on Nautzera's commentary to Akka. This might point to them having the same dreams, but not necessarily. For some reason I think they all dream different dreams.

I'm inclined to agree that the dreams are different per-person.  Although I don't have proof either. 

There's an interesting implication if we assume that 1) the dreams are individualized and 2) the timing matters -- it suggests that the timing of dream selection is based on what the dreamer is going to experience!  Another case of what comes after influencing what comes before.

Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2014, 09:09:39 pm »
The only instance two instances of a dreamer other than Akka is Nautzera. What is his dream? Isn't he seeing the Prophecy just before Akka awakens him? Can't remember. Maybe he was nailed to that wall or corpses. see below

Wonder if anything meaning can be squeezed from that one example?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 02:46:37 pm by Wilshire »
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2014, 12:45:00 am »
First time, Nautzera was in the dying Celmomas dream.  Second time, he was nailed to the wall in Dagliash.
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profgrape

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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2014, 01:32:06 am »
Thanks Som! 

After the first dream, Akka tells Nautzera of the skin spies and that "the Consult still plies the Three Seas."  What's interesting is that Akka considers telling Naut that an Anasurimbor has returned but inexplicably decides against it.  It almost seems like Akka was supposed to tell him but didn't.

After the second dream, Akka finally tells Naut that "an Anasurimbor has returned."  It's toward the beginning of TTT so maybe it's connected to Khellus being crucified on the circumfix?

Bolivar

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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2014, 03:41:53 am »
I think Mekeritrig asking Nautzera for the location of the Heron Spear precedes Kellhus formally asking Akka for the Gnosis.

I do think they have different dreams, Akka at least, since he started having the mundane dreams no one else had before. I wonder if that was Kellhus' early experiments with dream conditioning,  starting out small before going for the big ones. You have to keep in mind that from the very beginning, Kellhus knew he could manipulate Akka based on his dreams (he tells them a dream lead him to the Holy War).

if it really Kellhus,  you have to wonder if he's grasped Seswatha's heart, or if he's learned about all these dreams from Mandati/Swayali. Or is he fabricating the ones that other Mandate school men haven't seen before?

Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2014, 04:13:51 am »
It says in the text, either TJE or WLW, that Kellhus is the only schoolman with the gnosis that did not grasp the heart.
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profgrape

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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2014, 04:49:03 pm »
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It says in the text, either TJE or WLW, that Kellhus is the only schoolman with the gnosis that did not grasp the heart.

Right.  And I don't think the dreams are fabricated.  So if they're coming from Khellus, it suggests that he's developed his own Grasping-like link to Seswatha.  Knowing Khellus, I could easily imagine him using that link in ways never imagined -- like exploring visions from Seswatha's progeny.

Another way, way wackier idea is that Khellus is using his connection to the NG to learn about Nau-Cayuti's last days.  As many have suggested, it certainly seems like the NC dreams are a device for letting us know how the NG was summoned. 



Somnambulist

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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2014, 06:39:47 pm »
Maybe Kellhus' 'unlocking' of Seswatha from Achamian so he could teach the gnosis also opened up other dream sequences that slowly filtered out into Achamian.  It allowed Akka's subconscious to sift through Seswatha's more mundane life to find clues to Kel's origins, his deepest desire.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2014, 07:25:45 pm »
I like that idea Som. Especially since that would make it a mistake, and I do love Kellhus' mistakes.
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profgrape

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« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2014, 08:16:09 pm »
Super cool, Som!

Somnambulist

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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2014, 08:31:48 pm »
I like that idea Som. Especially since that would make it a mistake, and I do love Kellhus' mistakes.

Mistakes!  He makes mistakes!  I'm forgetting something...
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