*If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...

  • 40 Replies
  • 6722 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2014, 10:53:50 pm »
I re-read part of TJE last night and found a passage that takes on a different tone if Akka's dreams are an unintentional consequence of Kellhus unlocking Seswatha.  Delicious irony in bold:

Quote
"Do you know," he asks, exhaling a cloud of sweet-smelling smoke. "why Seswatha left us his dreams?"

She knows the answer.  Her mother always resorted to talk of Achamian to salve the abrasians between her and her embittered daughter.  Because he was her real father, Mimara had always thought. "To assure the School of mandate never forgets, never loses sight of its mission."

"That's what they say," Achamian replies, savouring his smoke.  "That the Dreams are a goad to action, a call to arms.  That by suffering the First Apocalypse over and over, we had no choice but to war against the possibility of the Second."

"You think otherwise?"

A shadow falls across his face. "I think the your adoptive father, our glorious, all-conquering Aspect-Emperor, is right."  The hatred is plain in his voice.

"Kellhus?" she asks.

An old man shrug -- an ancient gesture hung on failing bones. "He says it himself, Every life is a cipher..."  Another deep inhalation.  A riddle."

"And you think Seswatha's life is such."

"I know it is."

Triskele

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Condouchioned
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2014, 03:47:01 am »
Wow.  I've reread these books a few times, and I somehow do not remember that passage.  Was Akka already seeing some of the routine Seswatha dreams altered by that point? 

I think it's clear that something about the dreams and Seswatha is going to be hugely important at some point going forward, but I don't really know what.  I love the idea that Seswatha totally fucked with history somehow, but I don't know if that's it or not. 

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2014, 02:09:12 pm »
I had the same reaction, Trisk, "How the fuck did I miss this the last N times I read this book?!?"  Beyond any sub textual meaning, it's a very nice piece of prose. Context is every, I guess. :-)

At this point in the story, Akka's Dreams had shifted from routine Seswatha to the more substantive stuff. He has, for example, already learned about Ishual although we as readers don't get this information until later in the book.

If Seswatha is the one pulling the strings, it seems like he might be trying to use Akka against Khellus.

locke

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2014, 12:14:31 am »
There's only one dream in tdtcb and it's repeated twice with minor variations.  The dream is continued in twp, which shows us that the mandate dream the dreams differently because akka doesn't dream skafra.

Also we know that cello man prophecy dream is a seswatha lie because celmomas was smuggled alive from the eleonot fields of the dream, he died by hanging himself at ishual as described in the prologue of tdtcb which was recently discussed in the almanac.

Here's the link to the prophecy dreams.

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=46.0

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.


rnblut

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2014, 12:58:47 am »
For what it is worth, I don't think Cel escaped the Fields of Eleneot.  The prologue labels the high king as Ganrelka; there is a reference to him being rescued "after the catastrophe on the Fields of Eleneot."  Also, Ganrelka died from the plague, his uncle hung himself (prologue page 2).
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 01:00:27 am by rnblut »

locke

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2014, 03:27:40 am »
Ganrelkas uncle is celmomas perhaps

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.


Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 4877
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2014, 03:42:04 am »
I beliefe this is your reference locke:

Quote
Ganrelka’s uncle, who’d led the heartbreaking assault on Golgotterath’s gates in the early days of the Apocalypse, hung from a rope in his chambers, slowly twisting in a draft.

Ganrelka was rescued from the Fields of Elenëot by five Knights of Trysë. We as readers know this because we were told and saw him in this prologue, but the people of Eärwa were most likely told that he died on the battlefield. What better way to smuggle him into Ishuäl unbeknownst to anyone than to declare him dead?

(click to show/hide)
So, not Celmomas, Genrelka. Seems to be a mistake of speculation and 'facts'.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Aural

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • View Profile
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2014, 10:04:51 am »
Who? Me? I think I might have gotten a couple of things mixed up in there, but I definitely still believe that it was Celmomas who was hanging from a rope in the prologue.

Here are the facts as far as I remember them:

1. At the Fields of Eleneöt, Celmomas ‘died’ (his eyes went blank) after making the prophecy. Ganrelka was present and was rescued by five knights of Trysë who later end up in Ishuäl. This was 2146. However, Ganrelka was not immediately taken to Ishuäl, he became the last reigning High-King of Kûniüri.

2. In 2147, Trysë was sacked by the No-God’s horde. Presumably, everyone who didn’t read the prologue thinks that Ganrelka was killed there with the rest of his family, since Trysë was the seat of the Kûniüric High-Kings. I believe Achamian even remarks somewhere that the Anasûrimbor house perished with the sack of Trysë. The fact that he was secretly smuggled to Ishuäl was most likely... a secret.

What I was saying in that post is that I believe that, just like Ganrelka, Celmomas did not actually die on the battlefield but was declared dead and taken to Ishuäl in secret a year before Ganrelka, following the Fields of Eleneot battle. Ishuäl was Celmomas’ idea after all and Seswatha is the one who knew about it, what better way to escape to it than by having Seswatha shout "our king is dead" before the physicians have even arrived?

And besides, the prologue says that it was the uncle who lead the heartbreaking assault on Golgotterath’s gates in the early days of the Apocalypse, and elsewhere we are told that it was Celmomas who lead the heartbreaking assault on the Golgotterath’s gates in the early days of the Apocalypse.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 10:10:31 am by Akkeägni »

Bolivar

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • The Articulate Guy
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2014, 04:21:45 pm »
It might have been General Sag-Marmau, who led the Second Investiture, hanging from the rope. That one was probably more heartbreaking since it ended with the awakening of the no-god whereas the first dispersed due to fragmentation and surprise Sranc assaults.

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2014, 04:46:13 pm »
...and elsewhere we are told that it was Celmomas who lead the heartbreaking assault on the Golgotterath’s gates in the early days of the Apocalypse.

Are you sure about this?  TTT's glossary mentions during the Great Investiture, there were a number of "disasterous" assaults.  But I've been unable to find a reference that links Celmomas to a specific assault on Golgotterath's gates. 

It might have been General Sag-Marmau, who led the Second Investiture, hanging from the rope. That one was probably more heartbreaking since it ended with the awakening of the no-god whereas the first dispersed due to fragmentation and surprise Sranc assaults.

I was thinking the same thing, Bolivar!  And then I found this:

Quote
Sag-Margmau and the greater glory of Kuniuri were annihilated.

 :-\

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 4877
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2014, 04:47:21 pm »
Who? Me? I think I might have gotten a couple of things mixed up in there, but I definitely still believe that it was Celmomas who was hanging from a rope in the prologue.
Nah you were good. I was using your quote of quotes to clarify the situation locke et al was talking about above me.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Bolivar

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • The Articulate Guy
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2014, 05:22:15 pm »
Yeah I noticed that in the TTT glossary too although I could see it being an inconsistency on Bakker's part.

Not that I don't like the theory though!

Aural

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • View Profile
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2014, 05:29:24 pm »
It might have been General Sag-Marmau, who led the Second Investiture, hanging from the rope. That one was probably more heartbreaking since it ended with the awakening of the no-god whereas the first dispersed due to fragmentation and surprise Sranc assaults.

The problem is that the Second Investiture was far from the early days of the Apocalypse, which according to the glossary began with Celmomas’ call to war against Golgotterath, also called the Great Ordeal, the first one.

Don’t have the books now so I’ll just quote the wiki,

Quote
Traditionally, scholars date the beginning of the Apocalypse with Anasûrimbor Celmomas II's call for a holy war against Golgotterath, his Great Ordeal...

This was some 20 years before the second investiture and a lot happened in between.

But I guess you might argue that the ‘early days of the Apocalypse’ is in fact a reference to the awakening of the No-God? In which case the Second Investiture would seem to fit the description.

Are you sure about this?  TTT's glossary mentions during the Great Investiture, there were a number of "disasterous" assaults.  But I've been unable to find a reference that links Celmomas to a specific assault on Golgotterath's gates.

Celmomas was linked to all of them. He lead the Great Ordeal and the First Investiture when the assaults took place. (The wiki mentions Celmomas being able to hold ‘his coalition’ as long as he did.) And the prologue wasn’t talking about a specific assault but (it seems to me anyway) the assault in general, which is to say the Great Ordeal/First Investiture. And this was heartbreaking enough btw since it ended with a dispute between the Anasurimbors and to Celmomas abandoning ‘his own’ Holy Way. Not to mention Nil’giccas losing his sons and withdrawing to Ishterebinth.

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2014, 12:10:17 am »
Alright Madness, as you can clearly see, we can't resolve this without additional information.  Would you please be so kind as to oblige, if only in the interest of harmony for all?

rnblut

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2014, 04:18:19 am »
I think it might help to get back to the main point which is are Seswatha's dreams more or less true and/or can Khellus manipulate them.  We do know that someone has changed them from Akka's report and, as pointed out in the Judging Eye, it occurred around 4132.  Given the unending quality of Seswatha's dreams, it may well be Khellus who is manipulating Akka through his dreams as the tenor and content have radically changed only recently.