Bakker and Feminism

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2015, 04:02:40 pm »
FOOL! I AM THE FIRST! MY SKIN IS THIN. MY OUTRAGE BURNING.

I EXCEED MY CULTURE. NOT EVEN MALE PRIVILEGE COMMANDS ME.

Davias

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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2015, 06:57:41 pm »
IS
NOT
ONLINE
CRITICISM
INFINITE!

And
FOOL! I AM THE FIRST! MY SKIN IS THIN. MY OUTRAGE BURNING.
I EXCEED MY CULTURE. NOT EVEN MALE PRIVILEGE COMMANDS ME.

Ha, those were some good comments, I will use them in the most inappropriate moments, usually in conversations with some special females :)

Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2015, 07:26:48 pm »
IS
NOT
ONLINE
CRITICISM
INFINITE!

And
FOOL! I AM THE FIRST! MY SKIN IS THIN. MY OUTRAGE BURNING.
I EXCEED MY CULTURE. NOT EVEN MALE PRIVILEGE COMMANDS ME.

Ha, those were some good comments, I will use them in the most inappropriate moments, usually in conversations with some special females :)

lmao glad someone else thought so. Funny enough to force a comment, I would never have dreamed such an outcome.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2015, 10:05:58 pm »
I wouldn't necessarily assume people making these arguments were female. Unless you're thinking of someone in particular.

For the record, I think Bakker could have written Esmenet a little bit better early on, but for the most part it's quite good and at least on par with other fantasy females while simultaneously dealing head on with issues most fantasy still doesn't engage with.

I really don't know what he could do better with Mimara without completely changing her character though. Mimara is really cool.

Garet Jax

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« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2015, 10:42:00 pm »
I really don't know what he could do better with Mimara without completely changing her character though. Mimara is really cool.

I agree.  Mimara quickly became one of the most interesting characters in the book for me.  I genuinely hope that she wasn't the byproduct of Bakkers online experience.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2015, 10:47:04 pm »
She's introduced as a concept extremely early in Book 1 and the Judging Eye seems likely to be vital in the exploration of the setting.

I suspect Mimara has been part of Bakker's plan for a very, very long time.

Garet Jax

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« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2015, 10:54:28 pm »
While I agree with both your second and third points, I can't recall what concept she is introduced as early on in the first book.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 11:06:25 pm by Garet Jax »

Wilshire

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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2015, 03:30:03 am »
While I agree with both your second and third points, I can't recall what concept she is introduced as early on in the first book.
verb tense.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2015, 11:18:33 pm »
Having read several discussion about mr. Bakker and mainstream feminism, I came up with the idea of a comment, which is totally dedicated to exposing such obvious fact. Gotcha, readers! No infliction of opinion here. God only knows how long did I waited to arrange such comment.

Wilshire

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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2015, 11:37:37 pm »
I think its cool that people would be so moved as to make an account and add their opinion to a discussion.

Its rather unfortunate though when its just a 1-off. Makes it difficult to engage, affect change, and really explore an issue without a dialogue.

I'll assume the 5 links I posted sated that curiosity.... Plenty of discussion to be had.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MG

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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2015, 03:59:28 pm »
IS
NOT
ONLINE
CRITICISM
INFINITE!

And
FOOL! I AM THE FIRST! MY SKIN IS THIN. MY OUTRAGE BURNING.
I EXCEED MY CULTURE. NOT EVEN MALE PRIVILEGE COMMANDS ME.

Ha, those were some good comments, I will use them in the most inappropriate moments, usually in conversations with some special females :)

lol, you and The Sharmat, this sums it up nicely

if you like looking at this kind of thing (sometimes i have a guilty pleasure for it) r/tumblrinaction has some fun posts on reddit

geoint

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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2015, 08:02:03 am »
Feminazis and their revisionist history are so ridiculous.

If feminists are 'feminazis' does that make you a 'man-jew'? If so, good luck with that!

Feminists want to paint a picture of ladies being tough and in charge but guess what, this is a medieval type setting.

Yeah, thanks, I get that. Although it seems a little bit weird that the books are filled with aliens and magicians and demons and gods, but treatment of women MUST be historically accurate, or that would ruin the realism.

Putting that aside, it is possible - and many, many other writers have done this, GRRM being the most notable - to write fantasy in a medieval setting without being super-creepy about it. Like, not specifically structuring the metaphysics of your world to make females literally inferior, not making almost every female character a whore, and not raping and degrading them over and over again.

This stuff has a long history in fantasy writing - I suspect one of Bakker's main influences are the Gor books - and that's mostly for commercial reasons: lots of guys like reading books in which women are raped and beaten. But pretending that these pornographic elements are historical realism, or whatever - is pretty silly.

You have a problem with Jews?  Oh I forgot, now that Muslims are the popular 'oppressed group' its ok to hate on Jews. 

and umm maybe you haven't noticed, but GRRM's writing started out fantastic (theres no debate) but started to lose steam at the end of book 2 and the last 2 books straight up sucked balls.  And FYI, Dany has become a stereotypical woman who can't make up her mind, makes emotional (instead of logical) decisions, sleeps with her lieutenants...etc.  So there is that. 

geoint

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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2015, 08:09:13 am »
Its definitely a big part of the entire anti-genre thing that he always goes for. It kind of points to the irrelevance of what the book actually contains, because people will just assign it certain themes/ideas in their minds. After all, with so many words, you can cherry-pick anything you want out of it and find something to back it up. Thus, all the crazy crackpot theories we are left with, waiting for the rest of the books...

If it wasn't for all the crazy crackpot theories, I doubt I would have ever gotten an account here.  But DAMN do you guys get some wild but fascinating ideas and discussions in here!!! They are much appreciated by us, the less creatives lol

Francis Buck

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« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2015, 05:04:12 pm »
I think one of the biggest issues that crops up is people interpreting the setting as a place where women actually are literally inferior, when I think this is pretty clearly not the case and is kind of the whole point. Yes, there is a metaphysical framework wherein the BELIEF that women are inferior exists, and that this may have links to salvation/damnation/whatever, but ultimately those internal metaphysics are not some kind of genuine moral compass. That's like, kinda the point of the whole thing I feel like. The Gods are not good. We are told this, straight up, by the most fanatical character in the series (Psatma).

Unfortunately, this concept is not something that's super-evident right off the bat, or even after a full read of the series necessarily. But I feel like there's this sort of kernel idea of "women are literally inferior to men" in the Bakkerverse, which isn't really true at all and is very much a surface-only interpretation of the setting.

(I still think RSB failed to create a cast of diverse female characters though, which is a whole separate issue really, but it doesn't help with interpretation).

Crtha

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« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2015, 12:11:13 am »
I have removed a comment.

OP may not have a strong point, but it should be either addressed or ignored.

Replying with misogynist contempt is not acceptable, even if intended ironically.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 01:42:45 am by Crtha »
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.