The DŻnyain

  • 142 Replies
  • 36089 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MG

  • *
  • The Mouth of Bakker Fans
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Nurse Leweth
  • Posts: 1986
  • PSUKHE ALL THE THINGS!
    • View Profile
    • R. Scott Bakker Fans (on Twitter)
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2015, 08:20:17 pm »
@Simas:

All of the possibilities you lay out for explaining the Dunyain omission of the reality of Sorcery suggests a sort of carelessness I'm unlikely to attribute to the Dunyain.  When Kellhus discovers Sorcery he begins to question everything the Dunyain have taught him, because the Dunyain teach a way of thinking which endlessly revises metaphysical and core truths such as the reality of sin and damnation, the simple existence of hell and 'the Mark', the hidden nature of the onta.

It seems far more likely that the Dunyain were created to produce a single event that would change the course of the world: the creation of the event that is Anasurimbor Kellhus, "a soul utterly transparent to the Logos", a soul which lay outside of the cycle of causation like the Logos which could account for all that preceeded. 

Like Kellhus is also a White-Luck Warrior.


i agree--i think the Dunyain probably do know about sorcery but were interested in keeping Kellhus in the dark.  i'm betting that whatever the grand scheme is, it involves making a top-shelf, cutting edge, ps7, iphone8, T-9000 model Dunyain into an unsuspecting tool ... he *thinks* he's the first human to wield the metagnosis, etc

Simas Polchias

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Consult Fanboy
  • Posts: 181
    • View Profile
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2015, 11:37:49 pm »
Perhaps, yes, they planned to rediscover it later when the other, more mundane principles had been conquered.
I like this idea, Wilshire. It somehow sticks with that overall duniyain image of calm & long-term designers.

The Sharmat

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Horde General
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2015, 01:41:25 am »
They don't seek to grasp what comes before so much as to be removed from it entirely.
I disagree. In order to come before all, they must grasp all that came before them.
That's fine. You can reasonably argue this is a flaw in Dunyain philosophy. Nonetheless, it appears to be the route they took. Unless we assume a vast ancient Dunyain conspiracy that neither Kellhus and Moenghus were privy to in the least and never even speculated about.

Also it's weird that they're so freaked out by Moenghus' sorcery if they knew about it all along.

Wic

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Momurai
  • *****
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2015, 03:58:35 am »
The goal of Dunyain philosophy is a manipulation of the self, that it becomes capable of moving through the world purely under it's own volition.  Manipulation of circumstance is a secondary effect, and a lust for power the way Man would consider it isn't a quality they seem to have.

Remember how surprised Kell was to see how mundane people wore a second face, lying to themselves.  He wasn't really expecting this particular set of circumstances, but seized on it with the full weight of his focus and perception.

locke

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2015, 04:10:21 am »


The goal of Dunyain philosophy is a manipulation of the self, that it becomes capable of moving through the world purely under it's own volition.  Manipulation of circumstance is a secondary effect, and a lust for power the way Man would consider it isn't a quality they seem to have.

Remember how surprised Kell was to see how mundane people wore a second face, lying to themselves.  He wasn't really expecting this particular set of circumstances, but seized on it with the full weight of his focus and perception.

Seizing with the full weight of his focus and perception indicates a profound and bone deep lust for power kellhus is apparently blind to in himself.

Which becomes pretty explicit when kellhus gazes on the nansurium and decides he's going to seize the whole world.  His lust for power far outstrips conphas or any other character.

The Sharmat

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Horde General
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2015, 05:09:41 am »
Kellhus's motives throughout the first trilogy are fairly mysterious despite chapters from his point of view.

I mean when first reading "I will dwell in my father's house." in the prologue, did anyone here really assume 'Oh he's going to kill his dad.'

Kellhus wants SOMETHING, but I'm not sure what it is.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5437
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2015, 06:21:51 am »
Honestly, I don't think he was much of a mystery. He is pretty straight Dunyain in PoN.

Pretty clear that in order to come before, you can't be preceded by anyone. In order to do that, he had to seize everything. Every person, ever philosophy, magic, every major player including the Consult, and even the only dunyain in play. He's a bit more mysterious now, but what remains, assuming he is still substantially Dunyain, he must seize the rest of humanity, the Nonmen, and the gods themselves.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 06:28:18 am by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

The Sharmat

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Horde General
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2015, 12:46:01 pm »
So you believe his intent from the start was to do what the Pragma (presumably) sent him to do and kill Moenghus? I got the impression that was a decision he made fairly late in the game.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5437
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2015, 01:32:10 pm »
I think you're right with that. Like you said, he never actually says that he wants to kill his father until later in the book... So maybe he's a bit human, but still mostly Dunyain for the majority of PoN.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

locke

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2015, 03:26:14 pm »
It's pretty clear cnaiur wants to kill moenghus so kellhus aligns his stated goals to secure his cooperation.  Prior to discovery of sorcery he never considered it at least.

Wic

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Momurai
  • *****
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2015, 03:37:33 pm »
Seizing with the full weight of his focus and perception indicates a profound and bone deep lust for power kellhus is apparently blind to in himself.

Which becomes pretty explicit when kellhus gazes on the nansurium and decides he's going to seize the whole world.  His lust for power far outstrips conphas or any other character.
IIRC, he surmised that the only way to get to his father, who had been in the World for 30 years and held untold power, was to wield the Holy War.  Not until the visions on the circumfix did he truly seek to control the Three Seas (which is arguably towards a goal we are unaware of, so again not necessarily about power).

The Sharmat

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Horde General
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2015, 04:31:08 pm »
I think you're right with that. Like you said, he never actually says that he wants to kill his father until later in the book... So maybe he's a bit human, but still mostly Dunyain for the majority of PoN.
I think Kellhus is more human than he cares to admit, but not for that particular reason. I mean, is a Dunyain at all trustworthy, even to other Dunyain? Once one is removed from the Pragma's power and observation...why should any Dunyain do what they say?

Any Dunyain or half-Dunyain we've seen meet in the book leads to an inevitable power struggle. Even if Kellhus were the purest Dunyain possible, would anything different have happened, in regards to his loyalty to his initial mission and the fate of Moenghus?

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5437
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2015, 07:02:46 pm »
Different? Probably not. All the Dunyain we have seen have conflict with the others, half-breeds included.

In Ishual, the Pragma/ruling-cast keeps that conflict inwardly focused. Without that constant presence to keep them focused, the Dunyain would tear themselves apart.... Maybe this is what happened? The Elders truly did go into the Thousand Thousand Halls to die, and the ensuing power vacuum caused a rift that could not be mended.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

locke

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2015, 03:50:06 pm »
Seizing with the full weight of his focus and perception indicates a profound and bone deep lust for power kellhus is apparently blind to in himself.

Which becomes pretty explicit when kellhus gazes on the nansurium and decides he's going to seize the whole world.  His lust for power far outstrips conphas or any other character.
IIRC, he surmised that the only way to get to his father, who had been in the World for 30 years and held untold power, was to wield the Holy War.  Not until the visions on the circumfix did he truly seek to control the Three Seas (which is arguably towards a goal we are unaware of, so again not necessarily about power).
Just because he's deceived by his own rationalizations doesn't make his uncontrollable lust for power go away.

I mean he's like a sranc of souls, kellhus never encounters a soul without forcibly violating said soul, raping soul after soul indiscriminately and without care for the cumulative effect of his atrocities. He's driven to seize violate and dominate.  He's contrasted to cnaiur for a reason, because he's as violent to souls as cnaiur is physically.

Look at kellhus' rapist/pedophile rationalization for raping Leweth's soul.  Leweth was like a child and could be controlled, so kellhus exalted in controlling for controls sake, Leweth was asking for it, so to speak, Leweth "liked" it in the end, kellhus was smarter/more mature/stronger/better so he was entitled to Leweth's soul because of those things, Leweth's consent was irrelevant to kellhus slaying his unquenchable desires.  And of course kellhus eventually hunts down Leweth's soul and rapes it the way the bard hunted down the bastard  and raped him a few pages earlier.

But kellhus rationalized away all his crimes, his motivations, his emotions, dismissing them by claiming he was above them.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 04:34:46 pm by locke »

The Sharmat

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Horde General
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2015, 04:13:53 pm »
I find your utter hatred for Kellhus refreshing in a board of Zaudunyani but I think there's slightly more to him than that. He feels more than lust for power, even if he never admits it to himself. Across the first trilogy we see plenty examples of almost-human levels of emotion utterly unbecoming of a Dunyain, and not all of them are generally things considered monstrous.

PoN: Outrage at Cnaiur's rape of Serwe. Arguable muted sympathy for Cnaiur (It's subtle but the whole "So much hatred."/"So much suffering." thought he keeps coming up with while analyzing Cnaiur comes across weird to me, and he does this more than once.)

TWP: Outright pity for Cnaiur, when he spares his life entirely against his best judgement and justifies it with a self serving platitude.('There are always other uses.') Something dangerously close to affection for Esmenet. (When he seems almost touched that she came to reassure him on the eve of his circumfixion out of concern. Also notable as possibly the only time anyone but Cnaiur caught him in a lie without Kellhus planning to be caught. Then there's the moment where his breath catches as Esmenet almost suffers a fatal fall from a roof, which is an uncharacteristic, involuntary emotional response.) And most dramatically, some weird combination of guilt, dismay, and anger when he's circumfixed next to Serwe, desperately willing her to stop being dead. ("Move, girl! I come before you!")

TTT: I think everything after the "But he had come SO FAR" bit speaks for itself.

Kellhus is a broken Dunyain. He's not human, but I also don't think I'd characterize him as a Sranc for souls.