The Womb-Plague (A new theory, perhaps?)

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H

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« on: March 13, 2015, 11:13:52 am »
So, I was trying to do a little research on the Inverse Fire, trying to discover if there is evidence that anyone had seen it and not been converted, when I stumbled upon an "answer" (or at least, something of a satisfactory explanation for myself) to something that has always bothered me: the Womb-Plague.  I present what might be a new theory.

At first blush, it made no sense.  What kind of garbage weapon makes your enemy immortal?  Sure, it extinguished future generations of Nonmen, but if you could kill all the women, why not kill all the men too and be done with it?  I tried to explain it to myself that perhaps the Tekne was incompletely known or was unable to be wielded effectively, but both of those came to me as hollow explanations.

A while back, I took to think of why they would want to keep them alive for so long.  Was it just to torture them?  That didn't make much sense though either, since they could have had more victims if they let them continue to procreate.  Something was missing but I didn't have the time to find it.

In researching the Inverse Fire, I wanted to see who had seen (or most probably seen it) and what happened to them.  I believe I might have found a much more convincing explaination of the Womb-Plague instead.  Ready for it?  It was not a weapon at all, it was an enlistment.  Even more to the point, it was given to remake the Nonmen in the Inchoroi's image.

Follow me through here: as the Inchoroi wait in the Ark during the Second Watch, in the company of the traitor Nonman king Nin’janjin, I believe they realize two things.  One, that the Inverse Fire can effect Nonmen (and men as well) and two, that the Nonmen are not all that unlike themselves.  Realizing that it would be easier to fight their damnation collectively, the Inchoroi decide to set the Nonmen on the same path they took themselves, in the hopes that the Nonmen would turn willingly to the Inverse Fire and in the interest of their own salvation, help bring about the sealing of the world from the Outside.

The fact that all the women are killed in this plan is very salient here, since it cuts off any idea of "carrying on" through progeny.  The eternal life granted leaves them to work as long as they need to avoid damnation, faced with no other real option for self-preservation.

Certainly seems logical, how much easier would it be to reduce the world to 144,000 souls if your forces working toward that end are about that number or more?

I don't know if this is "right" in the strict sense, but I know it makes a lot more sense to me this way then the idea that the Womb-Plague was a failed weapon.  Failed enlistment tool, yes, definitely.

Hopefully this makes sense outside my head though...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

The Sharmat

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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2015, 03:12:19 am »
The Womb Plague made them all sick, actually. It just failed to kill the men. I suspect the Inchoroi didn't get to test it properly on a large population before using it, since it was a secret project and all.

I also want to say that Nil'Giccas had seen the Inverse Fire and not converted but I can't remember where I read it.

Wic

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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2015, 03:42:17 pm »
I don't remember it making the men sick.  From the TTT Glossary:
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The Second Watch was disbanded and the Inchoroi moved freely among the Cunuroi of Siol, becoming their physicians.  They ministered to all, dispensing the remedies that would at once make the Nonmen immortal and doom them.  Soon all the Cunuroi of Earwa, even those who had initially questioned Cu'jara-Cinmoi's wisdom, had succumbed to the Inchoroi and their nostrums.
According to the Isuphiryas, the first victim of the Womb-Plague was Hanalinqu, Cu'jara-Cinmoi's legendary wife.  The chronicler actually praises the diligence and skill of the High King's Inchoroi physicians.  But as the Womb-Plague killed more and more Cunuroi women, this praise becomes condemnation.  Soon all the women of the Cunuroi, wives and maidens both, were dying.  The Inchoroi fled the Mansions, returning to their ruined vessel.

Also probably worth noting, that immortality was not the Inchoroi's idea.  When they asked what tribute would temper the High King's Fury, he responds 'I would be young of heart, face, and limb.  I would banish Death from the halls of my people.'

themerchant

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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2015, 06:11:03 pm »
That's cause he saw nil-something had not aged. Nil-ninjanin(sp?) the king of the mansion/land in which the ark first struck.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2015, 09:41:28 pm »
I don't remember it making the men sick.
I am positive it did, since it's something I hadn't noticed that stuck out to me a lot on my last re-read. But I cannot remember where it was mentioned. I know it wasn't in the glossary. Think it was in one of the Aspect Emperor books.

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2015, 11:21:27 pm »
As far as I remember, inchoroi healers who tried to saved Cinmoi's wife were sincerely suprised by pandemic events. So it's problem of a "fictional evil race", when even toddlers should be utterly evil, fully aware about some sinister plan and take an active part in it. I doubt such possibilities. Inchoroi, while still being a race of rapist lovers driven by some disturbing revelation, were a too complex culture. One hand bestows longevity over everyone, second hand aims for the guts but rips out the wombs only, third (sic!) are making out with Nin'Janjin, fourth didn't survived the grafting. :з So it's all a complex (and thus more tragic) coincidence.

At the same time I adore your idea about immortality being a mean to cover their inter-species etc gaps.

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2015, 11:45:29 pm »
@H - that's a cool reading--i don't know why it never occured to me that making your enemy immortal was kind of dumb unless they had something else in mind.  so on this reading, the Inchoroi did not expect the nonmen to retaliate like they did?  the nonman revenge nearly destroyed every last inchoroi, so that was a little miscalculation. 

whatever their reasons, it is just plain mysterious to me that the inchoroi did so much to provoke a powerful foe.  hubris?  studpidity?  secret plan?  hardwiring?  i do not know

The Sharmat

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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2015, 02:50:17 am »
I still think the most parsimonious explanation is they fucked up.

As far as I remember, inchoroi healers who tried to saved Cinmoi's wife were sincerely suprised by pandemic events.
Or they were trying not to blow their cover before everyone went down and it was safe.

H

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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2015, 12:20:15 pm »
I don't remember it making the men sick.
I am positive it did, since it's something I hadn't noticed that stuck out to me a lot on my last re-read. But I cannot remember where it was mentioned. I know it wasn't in the glossary. Think it was in one of the Aspect Emperor books.

I'm looking for it too, but I can't find it.  Do you remember a bit more of the context?

@H - that's a cool reading--i don't know why it never occured to me that making your enemy immortal was kind of dumb unless they had something else in mind.  so on this reading, the Inchoroi did not expect the nonmen to retaliate like they did?  the nonman revenge nearly destroyed every last inchoroi, so that was a little miscalculation. 

whatever their reasons, it is just plain mysterious to me that the inchoroi did so much to provoke a powerful foe.  hubris?  studpidity?  secret plan?  hardwiring?  i do not know

Well, I think part is that Sil seems like a hot-shot.  I doubt if he thought all too much about the Nonmen's chances before the Battle of Pir-Pahal.  I pretty sure there was no such thing as "sorcery" on any of the planets the Inchoroi had reduced before.  There, the Tekne had, no doubt, reigned supreme.  I think that is what rankles Aurang so much.  Had Sil been patient, they would have learned of sorcery, learned how to devise something very specific to beat the Nonmen.  Instead, he launched them in to a head-on fight that probably cost not only a great deal of their lives, but probably a large part of their understanding of the Tekne.

Chances are good that Aurax and Aurang were all that was left.  They had to make due with they had left at that point.  I think they realized they were going to be crushed by the Nonmen eventually, because they lost the ability to birth more Inchoroi (or maybe they never had it).  In light of the fact that they could seduce Nin’janjin and apparently the practitioners of the Aporos, I think they felt like perhaps faced with no other choices, Nonmen would eventually start to fall in line with the Inverse Fire, just like the Inchoroi themselves did.

I think the plan would have worked actually, except that Men started to interfere.  I think the ad-hoc plan they had for the Nonmen actually was working out.  Men on the other hand, would not go out so easily, that's why the No-God was needed.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SilentRoamer

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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2015, 12:59:17 pm »
Hello H,

Glad you posted this here.

I don't know if you have listened to all of the TSAcasts but one of them discusses the crackpot idea that the Womb Plague was used to create the Chorae horde. If you take this into consideration as a given then the Inchie plan was 3fold:

1. Give immortality to the smallest and most powerful group of sorcerers (along with showing them the IF conscription tool)
2. Prevent the birth of any more of these most powerful group of sorcerers by fashioning a plague which simultaneously allowed a harvesting of anti-mage weaponry.
3. Employ new anti mage weaponry against a small but powerful group of sorcerers. (Along with enlisting the most primitive nation in existence to that end through religious doctrine manipulation).

It seems like a pretty solid plan to me - especially seeing as Sil really fucked up. You can imagine the Inchies have been uncontested for a while until they drop on "primitive" Earwa and the Nonman are flying magical chariots and launching fireballs from their arses.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 06:31:36 pm by SilentRoamer »

H

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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2015, 05:35:07 pm »
Just uncovered this inconstancy in the TTT Glossary:

Entry for "Nonmen:"

Quote
The Nonmen did in fact attain immortality, and the Inchoroi, claiming their work done, retired back to the Incū-Holoinas. The plague struck shortly after, almost killing males and uniformly killing all females. The Nonmen call this tragic event the Nasamorgas, the “Death of Birth.”

Entry for Cūno-Inchoroi Wars:
Quote
According to the Isūphiryas, the first victim of the Womb-Plague was Hanalinqū, Cū’jara-Cinmoi’s legendary wife. The chronicler actually praises the diligence and skill of the High King’s Inchoroi physicians. But as the Womb-Plague killed more and more Cūnuroi women, this praise becomes condemnation. Soon all the women of the Cūnuroi, wives and maidens both, were dying. The Inchoroi fled the Mansions, returning to their ruined vessel.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

The Sharmat

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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2015, 10:43:52 am »
Well, I think part is that Sil seems like a hot-shot.  I doubt if he thought all too much about the Nonmen's chances before the Battle of Pir-Pahal.  I pretty sure there was no such thing as "sorcery" on any of the planets the Inchoroi had reduced before.  There, the Tekne had, no doubt, reigned supreme.  I think that is what rankles Aurang so much.  Had Sil been patient, they would have learned of sorcery, learned how to devise something very specific to beat the Nonmen.  Instead, he launched them in to a head-on fight that probably cost not only a great deal of their lives, but probably a large part of their understanding of the Tekne.
Yeah Aurang has some thoughts like this in one of his POV segments, about how they might have won everything if not for Sil's impatience. I wonder if this is hindsight or not though. I mean Sil was presumably "King-After-the-Fall" for a reason, and Aurang was young at the time. For all we know, Aurang is older now than Sil was when he ordered the attack. Depends on how long the Inchoroi had been purging worlds.

Chances are good that Aurax and Aurang were all that was left.  They had to make due with they had left at that point.  I think they realized they were going to be crushed by the Nonmen eventually, because they lost the ability to birth more Inchoroi (or maybe they never had it).  In light of the fact that they could seduce Nin’janjin and apparently the practitioners of the Aporos, I think they felt like perhaps faced with no other choices, Nonmen would eventually start to fall in line with the Inverse Fire, just like the Inchoroi themselves did.
My personal theory is that the Ark was originally as much organic as mechanical, and that it was the Ark that created new Inchoroi. However the organic parts were irreparably damaged in the Fall and died, preventing any new Inchoroi from being born.

Aurang and Aurax weren't all that was left after Pir-Pahal though. There were many Inchoroi afterwards, despite their losses. And I don't think we really have much reason to think that the Inchoroi were actively trying to convert Nonmen, or that everything was going to plan before the Breaking of the Gates...since they'd already pretty much lost by that point, being down to two individuals hiding/hibernating somewhere in the Ark.

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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2015, 09:00:19 pm »
Yeah Aurang has some thoughts like this in one of his POV segments, about how they might have won everything if not for Sil's impatience. I wonder if this is hindsight or not though. I mean Sil was presumably "King-After-the-Fall" for a reason, and Aurang was young at the time. For all we know, Aurang is older now than Sil was when he ordered the attack. Depends on how long the Inchoroi had been purging worlds.

Yeah, impossible to know, but of course Aurang has the advantage of being alive to have hindsight, haha.  It certainly seems logical though, that they honestly should not have come out of the Ark until they knew exactly what to expect.

Aurang and Aurax weren't all that was left after Pir-Pahal though. There were many Inchoroi afterwards, despite their losses. And I don't think we really have much reason to think that the Inchoroi were actively trying to convert Nonmen, or that everything was going to plan before the Breaking of the Gates...since they'd already pretty much lost by that point, being down to two individuals hiding/hibernating somewhere in the Ark.

I misspoke, what I meant was they might be the two highest "rank" Inchoroi left.  We know that Aurang was pretty close to a second to Sil, being his Spear-Bearer and all.  We know nothing of Aurax though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

The Sharmat

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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2015, 08:31:31 pm »
Ah I see. Yeah, Aurang and Aurax are apparently "Princes" of the Inchoroi, whatever that means.

I can't really blame Sil for not taking the bronze age savages very seriously. Hindsight is 20/20. Though more caution would have been prudent ultimately, this is the Promised World after all. It's different from other worlds.

profgrape

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« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2015, 11:08:01 pm »
It's unclear at what point did the Inchoroi realize they'd reached the Promised World.  So it could have been that they just went about their genocidal business-as-usual without realizing that the stakes had been raised.

I wonder if it wasn't until they encountered a Man (the criminal Sirwitta) that they realized they'd reached the promised land and changed their strategy.