[Wilshire]

Seems like analogies to me as well. Gnostic Ciphrang, what a lovely surprise that would be.

[H]

Seems like analogies to me as well. Gnostic Ciphrang, what a lovely surprise that would be.

Wouldn't that be kind of superfluous though?  At the point of using the Gnosis, you are working at the essential "base level" no need for representational agents at all.  With the Gnosis, if you want something burnt, you make it burn, you don't need fire.  If you want force, you don't need a hand, you just push.

The Gnosis is so powerful because it doesn't need second order agents.  It works direct on Reality.  While I don't doubt that the Gnosis could summon or bind ciphrang, I'm not sure it would really be worth the effort.  The Daimos is an attempt to circumvent the limited power of the Anagogis, since it seems that the Analogies aren't as pure as the Gnosis and so aren't as powerful.  In other words, using the Daimos is an attempt at a "force multiplier" to circumvent how little one Anagogic agent can bring to bear.

The Gnosis doesn't need any of that.  It is power in it's rawest form and the Gnostic sorcerer is the agent; middle men and brokers would only dilute it.

[mrganondorf]

Seems like analogies to me as well. Gnostic Ciphrang, what a lovely surprise that would be.

Wouldn't that be kind of superfluous though?  At the point of using the Gnosis, you are working at the essential "base level" no need for representational agents at all.  With the Gnosis, if you want something burnt, you make it burn, you don't need fire.  If you want force, you don't need a hand, you just push.

The Gnosis is so powerful because it doesn't need second order agents.  It works direct on Reality.  While I don't doubt that the Gnosis could summon or bind ciphrang, I'm not sure it would really be worth the effort.  The Daimos is an attempt to circumvent the limited power of the Anagogis, since it seems that the Analogies aren't as pure as the Gnosis and so aren't as powerful.  In other words, using the Daimos is an attempt at a "force multiplier" to circumvent how little one Anagogic agent can bring to bear.

The Gnosis doesn't need any of that.  It is power in it's rawest form and the Gnostic sorcerer is the agent; middle men and brokers would only dilute it.

i'm still divided about this.  as far as the text goes, the gnosis is represented as a purer form of sorcery (albeit by humans with their habit to self-flatterize).  but then there is that quote by bakker somewhere saying that anagogis could be just as good if developed further.  so i still don't know if the gnosis is 'purer' or is just like the anagogis except instead of using a sword, the gnosis manifests sorcery in the geometrical shape of a beam.  perhaps sorcery cannot happen in Earwa unless it is filtered/interepreted through some kind of system like visualized objects like dragons or geometrical shapes or torrents of water or whatever

if Kellhus summons a Ciphrang via the gnosis, maybe it will appear as nothing more than a bright sphere or cube or something

oohh ooohhh  maybe it will show up like a huge obelisk!

[Wilshire]

H, I look at it like, the Anagogic summoned Ciphrang use anagogic sorcery whilst also being giant armored tanks.
A gnostic summond Ciphrang would be the same giant armored vehicle of death, but using gnosis instead of analogies.

If a schoolman is strong, and two schoolmen are twice as strong, then a schoolman summoning a pet that uses the gnosis is as strong as 2 schoolmen. Though, in this case, there is the added bonus of mobility, meat shield, and physical stopping power not against chorae bearing enemies.

Schoolmen dont like getting their hands dirty, and have qualms about running into a wall of chorae bearing bashrag, or storming a gate or literal wall where chorae bowmen sit. A ciphrang can take things like this out, probably dying in the process, but who cares. Kellhus is the savior. He says your soul is saved, so what matters what a lowly demon says about eating your soul. Just summon another one.


I personally dont think that a gnosis summoned ciphrang would be any different than the ones we have seen. Its a matter of binding critters from the outside. Though, it does seem strange that such things would use analogies in the first place.

[mrganondorf]

A new postulate!

Perhaps the reader is blinded by the notion that only the branch of sorcery labelled 'daimos' is in fact daimotic.  Could it be that the reader AND that sorcerers are unaware that to commit any act of sorcery is equivalent to (no more/no less) drawing the real content of the Outside into the world?

Let us use the unit Scott provides: the Ciphrang.  I propose that any spell is a spell because it is made up of some amount of Ciphrang.  For instance, summoning a dragon-head flame thrower is really summoning 500 tiny spirits, we can call them milliciphrangs and having them arranged just so.  The gnostic 'analogue' to the aforementioned spell would be superior in that it conjures more milliciphrangs and/or connects them in a more effective way.

I am thinking along these lines--In our world 2 firearms would be distinguished (ultimately) by the number of atoms contained therein and they way they are connected.  This firearm has less atoms and is a handgun.  This other firearm has more atoms and is a something massive, powerful, and vaguely phallic in a god-like manner as it protrudes from deck of a battleship.

A spell achieves greater levels of potency based on the number of Ciphrangs involved and the cleverness of there composition.  A deflationary view of Earwan metaphysics!

[H]

That is pretty out there MG, I don't know that I can follow it, haha,

What I was going to say though, with regards to Ciphrang knowing the Anagogis, is that there is a chance that the reason it knows that is because it is the soul of a damned Anagogic sorcerer.

[mrganondorf]

That is pretty out there MG, I don't know that I can follow it, haha,

What I was going to say though, with regards to Ciphrang knowing the Anagogis, is that there is a chance that the reason it knows that is because it is the soul of a damned Anagogic sorcerer.

WOAH

[Simas Polchias]

So. Daimos through the sorceries, eh? Oh, I'm into this game.

1) Anagogic daimos = a techique of spawning malevolents & picturesque rampagings djinnies, who are by themselfves a nearly perfect metaphor for anagogic sorcery.
2) Gnostic agency relation = somehow is linked with discerning demiurge & saviour. The nice part here is the cants of the internetz, which gave me a rl gnostic school of Mandaeans who considerer Jesus a false messiah & perverter of the teachings entrusted to him by John the Baptist. Never though of the Kellhus & Akka connection that way...
3) Psukhe something = अवतार, avatara, manifestation of the solitary godling. The sincerest and most powerful thing a fanim could possibly ever do while practising his faith.

[mrganondorf]

So. Daimos through the sorceries, eh? Oh, I'm into this game.

1) Anagogic daimos = a techique of spawning malevolents & picturesque rampagings djinnies, who are by themselfves a nearly perfect metaphor for anagogic sorcery.
2) Gnostic agency relation = somehow is linked with discerning demiurge & saviour. The nice part here is the cants of the internetz, which gave me a rl gnostic school of Mandaeans who considerer Jesus a false messiah & perverter of the teachings entrusted to him by John the Baptist. Never though of the Kellhus & Akka connection that way...
3) Psukhe something = अवतार, avatara, manifestation of the solitary godling. The sincerest and most powerful thing a fanim could possibly ever do while practising his faith.

Are you saying that you think different sorcereries summon different kinds of ciphrangs?  And that the psukhe ciphrang would be especially bad ass--maybe even something that should be called an Angel???

UNRELATED:
I was listening to something the other day, maybe it was When The Levee Breaks by Led Zepplin, but I was pleased by the way the guitar, harmonica, bass, and drums blended together.  Sometimes I like doing that--following the separate parts of the music instead of hearing as a whole.  It struck me that that experience is as close as I can get to whatever Kellhus is doing when he is thinking multiple tracks in his mind whether he is doing metagnosis or not.  Just thought I'd share

[Simas Polchias]

Are you saying that you think different sorcereries summon different kinds of ciphrangs?  And that the psukhe ciphrang would be especially bad ass--maybe even something that should be called an Angel???

Yep. For if these sorceries are different knives, they should cut Outside in different manner!
Dunno if there is a place for meta-class sorcery here. It's too groundbreaking, sorry for the pun.

[H]

Are you saying that you think different sorcereries summon different kinds of ciphrangs?  And that the psukhe ciphrang would be especially bad ass--maybe even something that should be called an Angel???

Yep. For if these sorceries are different knives, they should cut Outside in different manner!
Dunno if there is a place for meta-class sorcery here. It's too groundbreaking, sorry for the pun.

"If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. If you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels freeing you from the earth."

Hell, the Nonmen even called Aurang an Angel.