WARNING! SPOILERS FOR ALL TSA!! Analogues and Cognates???

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Inshallabel

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« on: April 20, 2015, 04:44:42 am »
Not sure if this thread already exists, I've glanced around but didn't find one, but I have seen scattershot posts on the subject.

Basically this is just for what analogues or cognates do you find between Bakker's Earwa, Herbert's DUNE, Tolkien's Middle-Earth, and real world History? 

I will list some.

Bakker and Tolkien

Nonmen of Viri - Sindarin Elves
Nonmen of Siol - Noldorin Elves
{I know the Nonmen are not as defined / divergent as Noldor and Sindar, just illustrating the relative supremacy of one to the other, the Siol Cunuroi seem to be the Highest among the Nonmen}.
Nonman Tutelage - First and Second Ages where Edain and Eldar had friendship in the Northwest
Inniur-Shigogli - The Plateau of Gorgoroth
Golgotterath - Barad-Dur
Dunyain - Dunedain (of the Lost Realm of Arnor)
Oirinas and Oirunas (Twin Sons of Siol) - Amrod and Amras (Twin Sons of Feanor)
Kuniuri - Either Numenor or Arnor

Half-Elven
Dior (Beren and Luthien)
Earendil (Tuor and Idril)
Elwing (Dior and Nimloth)
Elrond and Elros (Earendil and Elwing)

Cunuroi-Halaroi Hybrids
Cimoira - Mentioned in Isuphiryas.  Daughter of Sirwitta the Emwama and the wife of an Ishroi.  Accepted as Cunuroi.
Anasurimbor Sanna-Jephera "Twoheart" (Anasurimbor Omindalea and Nonman Siqu, Jiricet).  Sanna-Neorje (Father) adopts Sanna-Jephera as heir to the Anasurimbor Dynasty of Umerau.  Possibly point at which Nonman ancestry enters Anasurimbor line.
Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I, High King of Kuniuri, lived to be 178, the reputed result of Nonman blood.  Anasurimbors Moenghus and Kellhus are descendants.

Sranc and Bashrag - Orcs and Trolls
The No-God - Melkor
Mekeretrig - Sauron

Cu'Jara Cinmoi's Pursuit of Nin'Janjin's offer of Immortality - Ar-Pharazon the Golden's Pursuit Immortality via Sauron's urge to go against the Ban of the Valar.
Both rulers brought about the ruin of their Kingdoms/Peoples in pursuit of Immortality.

Bakker and Herbert
Haven't read every DUNE book so a lot less familiar on this front...

Dunyain - Bene Gesserit
Consult - Honored Matres
Anasurimbor Kellhus - Paul Atreides
Aspect-Emperor Kellhus - God Emperor Leto
The Straight Path / The Thousandfold Thought - The Golden Path
Skin-Spies - Face Dancers

Bakker and Real World
Ajencis - Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?  Unsure...
Stajanas II (Ruminations) - Marcus Aurelius (Meditations)
Emwama - Ancient Earwan Men, possibly similar to Erectus or Neanderthals 

Five Tribes of Men
Norsirai - Germanic, Norse, Finnish, Celtic
Zeum - Nilotic or African
Ketyai - Mediterranean, Indo-Iranian, Mesopotamian, Semitic, Afro-Asiatic
Xiuhianni - Mongolian, Sino-Tibetan
Scylvendi - Scythians, Sarmatians, Cimmerians
Should be noted that heritability of genes and traits seems to work differently in the Bakkerverse as opposed to the real world, though.

Inri Sejenus, Inrithism - Jesus Christ, Catholicism
Fan'oukarji I, Fanimry - Mohammed, Islam
Kiunnat Traditionalists of Nilnamesh - Hinduism and related Dharmic practices

Kyraneas, Ceneian Empire, Nansurium - Mycenean Greek / Etruscan, Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire
Kidruhil - Cataphracts or Klibinarii
Shiradi Empire, Cengemis, Conriya, High Ainon - Unsure on these...  Conriyan Knights seem reminiscent of Cataphracts or 12-Cent. Frankish Knights. 
The Ancient North: Umeri Empire, Kuniuri, Meori Empire, Aorsi - Essentially the Ancient Near Middle East, transplanted to the North.  Sumerian, Assyrian, Akkadians, Kassite Babylonians, Elamites, Hittites, and Mitanni with Norse or Germanic elements.
The Middle North: Galeoth, Thunyerus, Ce'Tydonn - Goths, Thurungians, Norse and Saxons.
Nron - Cyprus
Nilnamesh - India
Girgash - Persians, Medes, Aryans
Kian - The Arabic Caliphate
Nenciphon - Baghdad
Eumarna, Enathpanea, Xerash, Gedea - The Levant, Syria, Judea
Shimeh - Jerusalem
Shigek / Chemerat - Ancient Egypt, Ancient Mesopotamia
Zeum - Mali, Ghana, Songhay, Nubia??  A relatively isolated and remote people.

Excluding the Sorcerous Schools, the technology and aesthetic of Earwa in the 4th Millennium seems very similar to 11th, 12th, and 13th century Eurasia...
Lots of hauberks, mail, and I'm assuming some gambesons (padded jackets), scale armor, klivanions (or lamellar armor) is what is being worn by the majority of the Ketyai and Norsirai in these stories. 
As opposed to heavy Romantic and Gothic tourney plate amor of 15h and 16th century Europe and Game of Thrones...

The Nonmen - Ancient Greeks and Romans at the peak of their classicism and beauty, with copious doses of LSD, DMT, opium and cocaine. 

Please offer suggestions or criticisms.  I am sure I am missing or misinterpreting a lot here.
"Here" and "Now"
is inevitably rendered
"There" and "Then"

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2015, 12:47:22 pm »
Thought I'd throw a couple links down here for you in case someone is interested:

Dune and TSA *Most of the analogies that I found in the two, some more lengthy bits about golden path vs TTT/Probability-Trance

TTT and Golden Path *Might have to sift through some posts but I think i got the first mention of TTT and Golden Path in that thread.


Also, since its not explicity mentioned above - Miles Teg's pain -> awakening = Circumfixtion
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locke

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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2015, 04:53:06 am »
One to one mapping is to seductive to be reliable.  Such thinking is literally the sort of trap ones brain is eager to lead you into.  That said leveraging one to one mapping to search for possible blend vectors used may be quite useful

Wilshire

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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2015, 12:18:28 pm »
Kelmomas -> Alia.

One to one mapping is to seductive to be reliable.  Such thinking is literally the sort of trap ones brain is eager to lead you into.  That said leveraging one to one mapping to search for possible blend vectors used may be quite useful

For example:
Moenghus -> Duke Leto, then Kell -> Paul
Put Paul was the blind prophet from the desert, so Moe -> Paul? Where does that leave Kellhus?
Or Kelmomas ->  Letto 2, which makes Kell -> Paul again...
And thats just topical.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2015, 12:32:24 pm »
There are some pretty noticeable connections between Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy and various parts of the series, I.E. a band of wildly violent scalpers led by a hard-ass (Glanton/Kosoter) and a quasi-mystical figure (The Judge/Cleric). I actually think the Judge may have been an influence on the design of all Nonmen, as both are completely hairless and have marmoreal skin.

Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2015, 01:10:39 pm »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Wic

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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2015, 05:53:56 am »
There are some pretty noticeable connections between Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy and various parts of the series, I.E. a band of wildly violent scalpers led by a hard-ass (Glanton/Kosoter) and a quasi-mystical figure (The Judge/Cleric). I actually think the Judge may have been an influence on the design of all Nonmen, as both are completely hairless and have marmoreal skin.
I dunno if the nonmen connection holds, I don't see them as gods of war.  That's a great comparison between Glanton and Kosoter though.  Kinda makes Kosoter all the more terrifying, to me.

I do think the quote he uses (is it in TJE? I haven't my books) might shed light on the character of this second apocalypse.  "So, here are the dead fathers", here's a longer quote (bold mine, obviously, since McCarthy can't even be arsed to use much more than a period):
Quote
The people who once lived here are called the Anasazi. The old ones. They quit these parts, routed by drought or disease or by wandering bands of marauders, quit these parts ages since and of them there is no memory. They are rumors and ghosts in this land and they are much revered. The tools, the art, the buildingó these things stand in judgement on the latter races. Yet there is nothing for them to grapple with. The old ones are gone like phantoms and the savages wander these canyons to the sound of an ancient laughter. In their crude huts they crouch in darkness and listen to the fear seeping out of the rock. All progressions from a higher to a lower order are marked by ruins and mystery and a residue of nameless rage. So. Here are the dead fathers. Their spirit is entombed in the stone. It lies upon the land with the same weight and the same ubiquity. For whoever makes a shelter of reeds and hides has joined his spirit to the common destiny of creatures and he will subside back into the primal mud with scarcely a cry. But who builds in stone seeks to alter the structure of the universe and so it was with these masons however primitive their works may seem to us.

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2015, 11:41:26 pm »
Bakker and Tolkien
There is a nice similarity between Fingolfin & Nil'Gicass.
First rode to Angband alone, scaring Melkor's mooks by the way.
Second rode to the north alone, hammering weapon races like roaches.
Both were killed in these lands of their grave enemies.
Both were badass kings & warriors.

MG

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Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2015, 02:24:28 am »
Had to move this. The Q&A subforum is pretty much the only one with rules. Feel free to continue here.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 08:10:00 pm by Wilshire »
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015, 02:14:50 am »
One to one mapping is to seductive to be reliable.  Such thinking is literally the sort of trap ones brain is eager to lead you into.  That said leveraging one to one mapping to search for possible blend vectors used may be quite useful
Have to agree with this. It's almost actually a negative in this series when taken to any degree of specificity. I mean even stuff like the First Holy War that appears to be a straight analogue of the (third?) Crusade is pretty different when the Crusaders are more like Vedic Brahminists that had monotheism crudely pasted on top.

MG

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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2015, 07:38:39 pm »
Inshallabe -- amazing list! 

i had the feeling that Golgotterath was more like Thangorodrim, but i'm not sure why

i haven't read them, but i think Bakker is influenced by Warhammer -- the emperor like Shauriatus?

i'm not sure, but i wonder if all the flesh manipulation has some roots in Frankenstein

i can't remember if it's been said yet, but there's a Bakker--Asimov's Foundation connection, yes?

and finally, Bakker obviously ripped off JK Rowling--Voldemort is immortal by tearing his soul to pieces, Bakker flipped the idea around and made Shauriatus immortal by aggregating a bunch of souls together (being silly)