Ciphrang

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Borric

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« on: June 18, 2015, 07:59:03 am »
Did I miss something here?

So Iyokus sends the paramount daemon to attack Akka at the ruins.
He gets the daemon to deliver a message just before the fight starts.
Stating, “an eye for an eye” (obviously that means he intends to take Akka’s eyes as Akka took his own?)

The next thing we know, the daemon has bested Akka and is flying away with him clutched in his grasp.
And then…………… nothing.

Akka wakes up on a beach, bruised and broken, but alive.

Err, why bother attacking him at all?
I don’t get it.

H

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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2015, 12:21:52 pm »
It's almost impossible to know exactly what is going on there, the details are pretty scant.

If I had to 'ret con' it, I'd guess Akka blinds and cripples it.  Knowing it can't break his skin wards, it grabs him and tries to fly, maybe to drop him in the water to drown him?  Losing blood, it doesn't get far and drops him on the beach?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2015, 12:23:37 pm »
I've read that book twice and somehow never noticed that. I thought Akka bested the demon which flew away before he passed out?
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2015, 12:35:09 pm »
I've read that book twice and somehow never noticed that. I thought Akka bested the demon which flew away before he passed out?

Quote
But the thing was upon him, a raving nightmare, hammering and clawing, blows that cracked the stone about her, that brought blood to her nose. Wards buckled and fractured. Achamian called out great concussions and the demon’s head was battered. Horns snapped. Spider-eyes ruptured light.
Its assault became a frenzy, a jerking blur of violence, until it seemed hell itself tore and gnashed at his gates.
Achamian staggered, blinked white-burning eyes, cried out—
An instant of wasted voice.
Rats screamed through its exultant roar. Achamian falling, his mouth working. The closing of dragon claws …
Achamian falling.

Quote
The Ciphrang had sailed drunken across the skies, shrieking at the pinch of the needle world. Hanging from its claws, Achamian glimpsed lines and blots that were warring men, and the smudge of a burning city. The thing’s blood trailed earthward, burning like naphtha.
The ground spiralled closer and closer …
He awoke scarcely alive, breathing dust he could not lick from his teeth. With the one eye he could open, he saw sand cupped about the base of waving reeds. He heard the sea—the Meneanor Sea—pounding nearby shores.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2015, 12:58:06 pm »
Awesome, thanks for the passage. The end of the book is such a rush I must never have sat down and thought about this scene in particular.

It would appear they reach a stalemate of sorts. I assume "sailed drunken across the skies" means it was as close to passing out as Akka. I agree with H that it seems it wanted to drop him from some height to kill him, but ended up dropping before they managed to reach a substantial altitude.

Alternatively, maybe it was summoned back to Iyokus and left akka behind?
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2015, 01:28:41 pm »
Alternatively, maybe it was summoned back to Iyokus and left akka behind?

I'm not sure we've ever seen a Ciphrang die.  Perhaps if it's lost enough 'blood' it simply discorporates, so to speak?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2015, 05:28:58 pm »
Posessed Akka. :3

Francis Buck

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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2015, 02:12:08 am »
Yeah I've wondered about this one before, I know it's been discussed but I didn't turn anything up.

I agree with the above sentiments that, from the text, we can really only assume it reached a sort of stalemate before Zioz was "damaged" enough that he was unsummoned/banished.

H., I also cannot remember any instance where we've ever actually seen one killed...if that's even possible? Akka did manage to beat Ankaryotis into submission when escaping the Scarlet Spires...

Lame as this explanation may appear, it does basically seem that you simply have to kick their ass to a certain point where they default to the Outside.

I seem to recall at least one Ciphrang being hit with a Chorae, but again, I think it just banished the demon from the World (no salting or anything). I could be wrong about that though, it's a bit fuzzy.

Hell, even the Ciphrang heads hanging from Kellhus's belt still seem "alive" (I'm honestly not sure terms like life/death really even apply to a Ciphrang, or any other entity native to the Outside).

ETA: On the concept of "beating a Ciphrang into submission": perhaps the key to this is simply a battle of wills? The Ciphrang, for all their might, are always described as utilizing either raw strength, or otherwise a form of sorcery that seems comparable to the Anagogic variety. Wolves, flies, rats, suns...their "magic" is always represented by something Worldly, never in the abstract sense of the Gnosis. There's no way this is a coincidence in my opinion, though I cannot conceive any good explanation for why this is the case. Regardless, I suspect a battle between a mortal sorcerer and a Ciphrang ultimately comes down to which one of them can overpower their foe's perspective, or at least their enemy's frame of reference. For example, when Akka "defeats" Ankaryotis, perhaps it's not because he really caused the creature any meaningful, material damage -- but instead that Akka's power and focus at that moment was enough for him to establish his own "frame"...his mastery of the Gnosis is such that he can theoretically overcome anything the Ciphrang could possibly throw at him, since the latter seem to be inherently (for whatever reason) restricted to a form of Anagogis.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 02:34:01 am by Francis Buck »

H

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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2015, 10:38:38 am »
Quote
Achamian endured its unearthly violence, heaped injury after injury upon its agony.
And in the end it grovelled beneath his song, cringed like a beaten animal, then faded into the blackness …

I guess it is possible that a Ciphrang, when summoned to the Inside, is the essence of a demon held fast within a physical form.  Put enough holes in that form and the essence is now diffuse, with nothing to hold it and the demon is banished.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Francis Buck

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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2015, 02:44:24 am »
Yeah, that's the impression I have. If a Ciphrang's existence in the World was purely bound to the summoning sorcerer (let's say Iyokus), then why would that sorcerer ever "unsummon" the demon, especially if it has yet to succeed in its task? I suppose it's possible that a Daimotic sorceror could recall the demon if he/she senses an imminent demise...but why would they? We have explicit textual references to the idea that merely summoning a Ciphrang will result in one being tortured by the very same creature in Damnation.

No matter how you look at it, to me the Ciphrang seem effectively immortal. I do not discount the possibility of their souls being utterly annihilated (we know Oblivion, in some form, seems to exist), but I don't think we've seen evidence of it thus far in the series. Like most of the Soul/Outside/Metaphysical stuff, I think sheer force of will and clarity is what really matters. And the more Earwans that are convicted of the same thing, the more it has a notable effect on the Outside.

H

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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2015, 01:49:18 pm »
I think they would be immortal, but I think two factors keep them from being kept Inside for eternity.

First, if I am right that the physical form is what keeps the Ciphrang bound to the Inside and that the discorporation of said form banishes it, perhaps the pain that they feel is the constant 'erosion' so to speak.  The Inside slowly working apart something that shouldn't be there?

Quote
Unholy Ciphrang, a tormented soul thrust into the agony of the World, harnessed by words like a lion by strings, yoked to the task that would see it freed.

The other thing is, my guess is that a Ciphrang needs constant attention to keep yolked.  I think the limit should be your own endurance to keep it bound, or at least, on track.  I imagine if you fell asleep or passed out, you'd be as good as dead should the Ciphrang decide to turn on you.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Differential

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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2015, 11:26:17 pm »
Just finished a re-read and was bothered by this inconsistency.

I'm assuming that due to Akka's casting of the Skin Ward, it made gouging his eyes out impossible?

I suppose more probably Iyokus, through Zios, was speaking figuratively and not literally.

H

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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2015, 12:22:53 pm »
Welcome to the board, first of all.

Second, I think Iyokus was speaking figuratively, as I don't think he ever intended to only have the Ciphrang just take Akka's eyes.

My theory is that yes, the Skin Ward protected Akka from the worst of it's assault, the flying away with him was a last-ditch effort to kill him in a way that the Skin Ward could not protect him (drowning).
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2015, 09:25:17 pm »
I think they would be immortal, but I think two factors keep them from being kept Inside for eternity.

First, if I am right that the physical form is what keeps the Ciphrang bound to the Inside and that the discorporation of said form banishes it, perhaps the pain that they feel is the constant 'erosion' so to speak.  The Inside slowly working apart something that shouldn't be there?

Quote
Unholy Ciphrang, a tormented soul thrust into the agony of the World, harnessed by words like a lion by strings, yoked to the task that would see it freed.

The other thing is, my guess is that a Ciphrang needs constant attention to keep yolked.  I think the limit should be your own endurance to keep it bound, or at least, on track.  I imagine if you fell asleep or passed out, you'd be as good as dead should the Ciphrang decide to turn on you.

if that's true, it really speaks to the badassiness of Kellhus (one more thing)

on the other hand, is it possible that Kellhus made allies when he walked Outside?  perhaps he has an agreement with some Ciphrang that he will: let them run lose in the world OR help them usurp the gods OR feed them lots of high quality souls OR rewrite reality so that they can no longer be summoned into the world OR capture Shauriatas for them OR teach them the gnosis

dragharrow

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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2015, 05:04:25 pm »
Quote
On the concept of "beating a Ciphrang into submission": perhaps the key to this is simply a battle of wills? The Ciphrang, for all their might, are always described as utilizing either raw strength, or otherwise a form of sorcery that seems comparable to the Anagogic variety. Wolves, flies, rats, suns...their "magic" is always represented by something Worldly, never in the abstract sense of the Gnosis. There's no way this is a coincidence in my opinion, though I cannot conceive any good explanation for why this is the case. Regardless, I suspect a battle between a mortal sorcerer and a Ciphrang ultimately comes down to which one of them can overpower their foe's perspective, or at least their enemy's frame of reference. For example, when Akka "defeats" Ankaryotis, perhaps it's not because he really caused the creature any meaningful, material damage -- but instead that Akka's power and focus at that moment was enough for him to establish his own "frame"...his mastery of the Gnosis is such that he can theoretically overcome anything the Ciphrang could possibly throw at him, since the latter seem to be inherently (for whatever reason) restricted to a form of Anagogis.

I agree. When it comes to the works of sorcery there isn't really difference between material damage and enforcing one's frame on another. A sorcerer can cause material damage to the material world, but sorcery itself is already the manifestation of frame and argument. As Ciphrang are creatures made of sorcery I don't think that there would be any distinction whatsoever between material form and "frame". They are themselves conceptual abstractions, like the platonic forms with agency. When two sorcerer's battle they make arguments at each other but the Ciphrang don't make arguments, they are the argument.

As for what happened in that scene I agree. I think the Ciphrang's form took too much damage and collapsed.

on the other hand, is it possible that Kellhus made allies when he walked Outside?  perhaps he has an agreement with some Ciphrang that he will: let them run lose in the world OR help them usurp the gods OR feed them lots of high quality souls OR rewrite reality so that they can no longer be summoned into the world OR capture Shauriatas for them OR teach them the gnosis

I think Kellhus could pull it off but why? What would be the point? There's no reason for Kellhus to negotiate with demons when they can be summoned and enslaved using the daimos. Kellhus already has the scarlet spires under his control, and Iyokis -who is presumably one of the more experienced daimotic summoners out there- has been given a position of distinction among his retinue. I think if Kellhus plans to use Ciphrang, and I assume he does, that he'll simply bend them to his will like he does everyone else.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 05:06:41 pm by dragharrow »