Inrilatas-insane or a threat to Kelhuss?

  • 8 Replies
  • 6098 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« on: August 01, 2015, 09:32:01 pm »
For the brief time we meat this most intriguing man, he strike me as if he was in the know. I believe he had grasped TTT and maybe what he revealed to Kellhus, left Kellhus with only one option; chaining him and calling him crazy. I believe he knew what his dad's plans were and that they weren't necessarily for the good of the world. Just would of loved to know what exactly was going on is his mind. He was so interesting. Just wondering what other thoughts you guys might have about him. Such a truly great character, whom I believe knew a whole lot about what was really going on.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2015, 03:51:18 pm »
The Maithanet/Inrilatas encounter is in my top five favorites scenes in the series.  And a lot of it, as you suggest, is due to the fact that he clearly knows things.  That he's killed before we learn any of these things is just plain cruel (like Moeghus not answering Kellhus' questions about the nature of the No-God).

If someone were to grasp Kellhus' end game, it sure seems like it would be Inrilatas.  By six, Kellhus is the only person who can "fathom, let alone manage, him."  Seems like a fitting inversion if Inrilatas is the only one who can fathom Kellhus.

A couple of other thoughts on Inrilatas:

- His passions seem like they'd have made for a super-powerful Cishaurim.  Also interesting is Esme's explanation to Kelmomas for his insanity:

Quote
...The God burns strongly in all of you.  With Inrilatas he burns the strongest of all.

I know this is just a twist on the cultural concept of being "touched" as an explanation of mental illness.  But in a world with meaning, it suddenly becomes more significant.

- His behavior is very Ajokli-like.  He enjoys inciting extreme emotions in others; making people cry or reach for their swords.  But from what we see of him, it all seems like purposeless mischief with a cruel streak -- very much in line with Ajokli.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2015, 01:21:17 pm »
In case you haven't checked it out, there's a thread about the  Maithanet-Inrilatas conversation.

To your question, I'd say probably both. I think Inrilatas is totally insane, and extremely dangerous, to Kellhus and to anyone else, and was likely chained because of this. He did seem to see a lot farther than most, even in his insanity.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2015, 02:37:55 pm »
Feel free to merge this. I looked for it and my tiny brain couldn't find one. I figured there was one, sorry.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2015, 02:44:03 pm »
Nah new topics are great, no worries. Also, no way to merge topics for the non-administrative folks, so you didnt miss anything :)
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2015, 01:34:52 pm »
Quote
"I do it to heap damnation upon myself," he said as if making an absurd admission.
"But why?" the boy asked, genuinely curious now.
Be wary... the secret voice whispered.
"Because I can think of no greater madness."

Quote
"What if redemption were simply another form of damnation? What if the only true salvation lay in seeing through the trick and embracing oblivion?"
"And what if," Esmenet replied with more than a little annoyance, "these questions could be debated endlessly without hope of resolution?"
In a wink, Theliopa's manner vanished, replaced by a hunched ape, leering and laughing. "Father has been rubbing off on you!"

Perhaps we are to draw from this that, in addition to Kellhus simply suffering no rivals, his worry is that Inrilatas would ally with the Consult.  Why not kill him though?  Perhaps he is worried about the threat of Damnation for infanticide?

Quote
"There can only be three of us..." Inrilatas finally said. Once again, unnameable passions creaked through the seams of his voice.
The Blessed Empress blinked more tears, this time for relief. "Of course. Just your uncle and myself."
"No. Not you. My brothers..." A heaving breath swallowed his voice.
"Brothers?" she asked, more alarmed than curious.
"Kel..." he said with a bestial grunt, "and Sammi..."

He names two, implying himself as the third.

Quote
All of this, the secret voice warned, is simply for show.
And that was the joke, Kelmomas realized: Inrilatas truly meant nothing of what he said.

Just some interesting quotes I found.

I think when Inrilatas is speaking to Maithanet, he is merely distracting him with half-truths.  He can't outright lie to him, neither can actually outright lie, so they play a game of words to distract each other.  Inarilatas then using the truth of Kel's nature to distract him while he goes to kill him.  His only miscalculation is his own ability though, he believes himself stronger than it seems he is.

Inrilatas is only insane in-so-far as he is a sociopath.  He was too smart for his own good, he understood too much of everything's base nature to believe in anything higher.

Also, consider Kellhus' reaction:
Quote
"For some reason Esmi suspected Maitha of sedition," Kellhus said without the least whisper of remorse or concern, "and so called him to account before Inrilatas. The interrogation went wrong, horribly wrong, and my brother ended up killing my son..." He looked down to his haloed palms, and Proyas found it curiously affecting, the contrast between his tone and his manner. "I know little more than this."

If he wanted to know more, he would.  Thus, he is either intentionally deceiving himself or is feigning deception.  My bet is on it being a ruse.  He knew the Empire would crumble, but it has already served it's purpose so it's irrelevant.  There's no plan for a return.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2015, 02:13:52 pm »
Perhaps we are to draw from this that, in addition to Kellhus simply suffering no rivals, his worry is that Inrilatas would ally with the Consult.  Why not kill him though?  Perhaps he is worried about the threat of Damnation for infanticide?
Maybe, but I doubt he worries about damnation from any cause. Whats one atrocity heaped onto a mountain? Nothing. So there must be a further reason. I'd guess he needed Maithanet out of the way once he had served his purpose, and couldn't be around to do it himself. Seems a terribly round-about way to do that though. Likely some other reason.

He names two, implying himself as the third.
Whats the context of this? Is it when he is planning the encounter with Maithanet and Kel? In which case, leaving out Maithanet means, to me, that he was having a conversation with Kel/sami, and Maithanet was a ruse for Kel, but he was otherwise irrelevant. Maybe Inrilatas knew he was going to die, needed to die, in order break loose something within little Kel, or to set in motion, inexorably, Maithanet's death, but again so that Kel could reign unopposed for some unforeseen end.

But to what end? Viramsata for the WLW? Setting exactly the path in motion that must carry the WLW forward along the expected path. If its anything like that, then we can go back to Kellhus, and suggest that he needed Inrilatas to carry out his part in the lie that is the WLW's own prescience, so he kept him around... and down the rabbit hole we go.

Inrilatas is only insane in-so-far as he is a sociopath.  He was too smart for his own good, he understood too much of everything's base nature to believe in anything higher.
Sociopath yes, but I dont think this is what makes him insane. He appears to knowingly do things that are detrimental to himself because they are detrimental. His complete lack of self-preservation makes him insane.

Also, consider Kellhus' reaction:
Quote
"For some reason Esmi suspected Maitha of sedition," Kellhus said without the least whisper of remorse or concern, "and so called him to account before Inrilatas. The interrogation went wrong, horribly wrong, and my brother ended up killing my son..." He looked down to his haloed palms, and Proyas found it curiously affecting, the contrast between his tone and his manner. "I know little more than this."

If he wanted to know more, he would.  Thus, he is either intentionally deceiving himself or is feigning deception.  My bet is on it being a ruse.  He knew the Empire would crumble, but it has already served it's purpose so it's irrelevant.  There's no plan for a return.

Feigning deception, but not because he doesn't care for the Empire, but because he knows that it must necessarily undergo a painful transition from the Anasurimbor rule to the rule of another. He will just as easily conqueror it on his return trip as he did Sakarpus. After all, they had the chorae horde and were defenseless. I think it will just make his job easier to have all his enemies in one place, sitting in his throne room, rather than having to hunt them all down in the wilderness.

So, in a way, yes, his own empire as The Ordeal knows it, is forsaken. What good is a country filled with only the very old, the very young, the sick and the impoverished? Better to come home to a replenished country filled with new subjects, healthy and ready to fight, after a year or two of coaxing into the same fervor that now grasps The Ordeal.

The death of the old empire does not imply there is no plan to return home, just that the home will be quite different than his men may suspect (if any of them even make it back).
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2015, 08:21:47 pm »
Maybe, but I doubt he worries about damnation from any cause. Whats one atrocity heaped onto a mountain? Nothing. So there must be a further reason. I'd guess he needed Maithanet out of the way once he had served his purpose, and couldn't be around to do it himself. Seems a terribly round-about way to do that though. Likely some other reason.

Yeah, I actually agree, something else was up.  Considering though his mental state though, is he predictable enough for Kellhus to be able to know what he would be up to?

Whats the context of this? Is it when he is planning the encounter with Maithanet and Kel? In which case, leaving out Maithanet means, to me, that he was having a conversation with Kel/sami, and Maithanet was a ruse for Kel, but he was otherwise irrelevant. Maybe Inrilatas knew he was going to die, needed to die, in order break loose something within little Kel, or to set in motion, inexorably, Maithanet's death, but again so that Kel could reign unopposed for some unforeseen end.

But to what end? Viramsata for the WLW? Setting exactly the path in motion that must carry the WLW forward along the expected path. If its anything like that, then we can go back to Kellhus, and suggest that he needed Inrilatas to carry out his part in the lie that is the WLW's own prescience, so he kept him around... and down the rabbit hole we go.

That is when Esmenet comes to him to tell him she needs him to read Maithanet for her.  In rethinking this though, I think he means three of them in the room, him, Kel, Sammi.

Sociopath yes, but I dont think this is what makes him insane. He appears to knowingly do things that are detrimental to himself because they are detrimental. His complete lack of self-preservation makes him insane.

Well, he says he "courts damnation because there is so greater madness."  So, he is actually choosing to be mad.  I guess that is pretty insane...

The death of the old empire does not imply there is no plan to return home, just that the home will be quite different than his men may suspect (if any of them even make it back).

Yeah, that is true, but no return to what was.  It fits with Kellhus' objective being a total rewrite of Earwa actually.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2015, 08:48:58 pm »
Maybe, but I doubt he worries about damnation from any cause. Whats one atrocity heaped onto a mountain? Nothing. So there must be a further reason. I'd guess he needed Maithanet out of the way once he had served his purpose, and couldn't be around to do it himself. Seems a terribly round-about way to do that though. Likely some other reason.

Yeah, I actually agree, something else was up.  Considering though his mental state though, is he predictable enough for Kellhus to be able to know what he would be up to?


Well, it depends on the nature and cause of his insanity. Recall Kellhus could eventually predict Cnaiur, who was arguably mad, and tried at every turn to confound the Dunyain, yet it was his desire to not be predictable that inevitably made him predictable.

If Inrilatas was somehow coaxed into his insanity by machinations devised purposefully by Kellhus, then yes his mental state is such that he could be predicted. If his madness is so ablsolute that you can rule out all paths of possibility other than the 'most mad', then again he is predictable. He exists in a fairly stagnant place with limited input vairables, and thus, limited outcomes.

Consider the difficulty of predicting the future given the input of thousands of people, dozens of nations, faiths, callings, loyalties, etc. Then consider predicting a single man who is chained to a wall who receives little to no interactions from anyone or anything else. I think given the right lever, even Inrilatas could be moved in the direction one wanted, and it would seem Kellhus would be the person to find such a lever.

Now, it is probably more likely that Inrilatas' own vast intellect coupled with his self described insanity makes him terribly difficult to predict. Even his secluded environment could add to the difficulty, because there is less information about how he would react to specific situation. I think its possible he could be entirely unpredictable to even Kellhus, given that he appears to be stretched pretty thin running a massive nation and working on destroying the Consult. Inrilatas, and Kelmomas, and the Fanim, and many other things could be loose ends that kellhus didnt have time, or the need, to tie up

I just think there is enough there for Kellhus to have a hand in Inrilatas' decision making, but that gives him the benefit of the doubt.
One of the other conditions of possibility.