The Origin and Practicalities of the Tusk

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« on: November 04, 2015, 05:41:49 pm »
OK, so some interesting questions were raised about The Tusk, as in, how it was made, why a Tusk, and so on.

Here's some collected thoughts I had:

First off we had an interested quote from Scott, in an interview on Pat's Fantasy Hotlist:
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So the Inchoroi began giving them (Chorae) to the Men of Eärwa, hoping to incite them to rebellion. But the Halaroi had no stomach for rousing a feared, and most importantly, absent master, and so rendered the deadly gifts to their Nonmen overlords. The Inchoroi then looked to Eänna, where the Men were both more fierce and more naive. They gave the Chorae to the Five Tribes as gifts, and to one tribe, the black-haired Ketyai, they gave a great tusk inscribed with their hallowed laws and most revered stories–as well as one devious addition: the divine imperative to invade the ‘Land of the Felled Sun’ and hunt down and exterminate the ‘False Men.

This made me think that the Inchoroi gave the Tusk to the Ketyai before the Breaking of the Gates.  However, in tDtCB we're told:

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Ribboned by characters, the Tusk recorded the great migratory invasions that marked the ascendancy of Men in Eärwa.

Well, that is interesting.  Two possibilities here: either the Tusk was inscribed with this information before the Breaking, meaning that all human migration was planned and directed by the Inchoroi, or the Tusk post-dates the Breaking.  Each is interesting in their own way, the first even further pointing out that the Tusk is viramsata not just spiritually, but actually directed the Tribes to certain places (most likely being the location of specific Nonmen mansions).

On the other hand, if the Tusk was inscribed after the Breaking, well, then Year 0 of the Tusk is not the Breaking of the Gates, it's the inscribing of the Tusk.  There is a further curiosity as well, which is the complete lack of any information on the Cûno-Halaroi Wars, which would seem kind of critical information.  If they felt like inscribing migratory information, why not inscribe the fighting they saw there too?

There is, of course, another option, that being the idea that the Tusk predated the Breaking, but was simply not inscribed.  The question then would be how did the Ketyai get it to Sumna?  Perhaps that is what Scott is saying that the Inchoroi gave it to the Ketyai, that they brought it from Eanna to Earwa for them, and presented it with the inscriptions.  More on this later.

The glossery entry for the Tusk says:
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Since the Tusk bears the oldest extant version of The Chronicle of the Tusk, which in turn is the oldest human text, its provenance remains an utter mystery, though most scholars agree that it predates the coming of the Tribes to Eärwa.

And yet, the glossary entry for the Chronicle says:
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It consists of the following six books:
 
Book of Canticles—The old “Tusk Laws” regarding every aspect of personal and public life, which were superseded in the Inrithi tradition by the revised strictures of The Tractate.
Book of Gods—The primary scripture of the Cults, enumerating the various gods, and explaining the rites of purification and propitiation basic to each.
Book of Hintarates—The story of Hintarates, an upright man plagued with apparently undeserved adversity.
Book of Songs—A collection of verse prayers and parables extolling the virtues of piety, manliness, courage, and tribal loyalty.
Book of Tribes—The extended narrative of the first Prophets and Chieftain-Kings of the Five Tribes of Men before the invasion of Eärwa.
Book of Warrants—The account of the observances governing the interactions between castes.

None of those books would seem to detail "the great migratory invasions that marked the ascendancy of Men in Eärwa" that is said the Tusk has inscribed on it in tDtCB.  So, was that just an error on Scott's part?  Or is it that the Chronicle is the real "holy work" and the Tusk was just it's manipulation?

Also, the matter of Angeshraël, who is "most famed Old Prophet of the Tusk, responsible for leading the Five Tribes of Men into Eärwa," of whom we are told by Kellhus:
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When he had eaten and was content, sacred Husyelt, the Holy Stalker, joined him at his fire, for the Gods in those days had not left the world in the charge of Men. Angeshraël, recognizing the God as the God, fell immediately to his knees before the fire, not thinking where he would throw his face.”

Angeshraël bows himself into a fire, in the presence of a "god" who still walked the world?  A fire that does not consume him, but enlightens him, in other words an Inverse Fire?  What a coincidence that after meeting this "god" he does exactly as the Inchoroi would want him to do, that is, lead the Tribes to Break the Gates.  I think that Angeshraël actually met Aurang on Mount Eshki, where he was seduced by the "truth" as presented in the Fire.  Aurang convinced him to lead the Tribes into Earwa, since he knew that they were losing to the Nonmen, that the Ark was under such siege that it was time to take the fight to the Nonmen's mansions.

OK, enought crack-pot for now, weigh in guys on how far off you think I am.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2015, 06:27:47 pm »
"extant version of The Chronicle of the Tusk,"
Meaning its the oldest surviving record of the text known as "the chronicle of the tusk". This implies to me that this is the title of a book, not simply an exposition of "the words we wrote down on a tusk". Think of it as "The Bible" written down on a tusk. Just so happens that "Bible" is replaced with "Chronicle of the Tusk", so "Chronicle of the Tusk" on the Tusk. Probably not a significant distinction, but I'm making it.

Further, you show "Chronicle" and its series of books.
Makes me think of Old Testament vs New Testament. Those books may not encompas the entirity of the books/words written in the "the chronicle of the tusk".

So:
 Men had an Old Testament, called it The Chronicle. The Inchoroi wrote it down on a tusk, maybe left some blank space, gave it to men, men read it, realized "holy crap look at this, we forgot that we are supposed to kill nonmen", breaking of the gates, men continued the story of the Chronicle, now "of the tusk" including new testament books such as "the great migratory invasions that marked the ascendancy of Men in Eärwa".

How's that?


As for Angeshraël, I agree. There is speculation on this elsewhere, but you've summed it up nicely. "sufficiently advanced technology indistinguishable from magic", and magic -> god... Close enough.
Icing on the cake is that he led them to kill the nonmen as you say. Though, Mount Eshki is awfully far from eana. Maybe he thought he was a god due to the flying over vast distances, etc.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 08:24:23 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2015, 06:49:27 pm »
"extant version of The Chronicle of the Tusk,"
Meaning its the oldest surviving record of the text known as "the chronicle of the tusk". This implies to me that this is the title of a book, not simply an exposition of "the words we wrote down on a tusk". Think of it as "The Bible" written down on a tusk. Just so happens that "Bible" is replaced with "Chronicle of the Tusk", so "Chronicle of the Tusk" on the Tusk. Probably not a significant distinction, but I'm making it.

Further, you show "Chronicle" and its series of books.
Makes me think of Old Testament vs New Testament. Those books may not encompas the entirity of the books/words written in the "the chronicle of the tusk".

So:
 Men had an Old Testament, called it The Chronicle. The Inchoroi wrote it down on a tusk, maybe left some blank space, gave it to men, men read it, realized "holy crap look at this, we forgot that we are supposed to kill nonmen", breaking of the gates, men continued the story of the Chronicle, now "of the tusk" including new testament books such as "the great migratory invasions that marked the ascendancy of Men in Eärwa".

How's that?

That makes sense, the parts about the migrations could certainly have been added after the Tusk was already given, perhaps even already installed in Sumna.

As for Angeshraël, I agree. There is speculation on this elsewhere, but you've summed it up nicely. "sufficiently advanced technology indistinguishable from magic", and magic -> god... Close enough.
Icing on the cake is that he led them to kill the nonmen as you say. Though, Mount Eshki is awfully far from eana. Maybe he thought he was a god due to the flying over vast distances, etc.

We know where Mount Eshki is?  I looked on the maps and didn't see it...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2015, 08:25:03 pm »
My bad. I thought it was someplace just east of the Neleost Sea.
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profgrape

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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2015, 10:02:27 pm »
Quote
Men had an Old Testament, called it The Chronicle. The Inchoroi wrote it down on a tusk, maybe left some blank space, gave it to men, men read it, realized "holy crap look at this, we forgot that we are supposed to kill nonmen", breaking of the gates, men continued the story of the Chronicle, now "of the tusk" including new testament books such as "the great migratory invasions that marked the ascendancy of Men in Eärwa".

This sounds about right to me. 

I've always imagined that initially, the Tribes had an "oral law".  At some point Angeshrael went up the mountain, met the "gods" (Inchoroi) and came back with a tusk inscribed with the oral law. 

*Love* the idea of Angeshrael's putting his face in the fire be his seeing the Inverse Fire.

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2015, 05:54:53 pm »
came back with a tusk inscribed with the oral law
The weirdest boner time.

Bolivar

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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2015, 07:21:46 pm »
Regarding the timing discrepancy, it might just be a recon, something that had to change for the continuity of where the story is going to make sense. That or there really was blank space and the Ketyai were capable of adding to it.

Something that I mentioned in the Westeros thread, how the Fanim had sworn to destroy the Tusk. Makes me think Fane knew what was going on, and further darkens Kellhus' intent in wiping out the Cishaurim and their religion, both during and after the holy war. Makes it very haunting when Kellhus is using Fanim blood to draw a Tusk on foreheads.

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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2015, 07:35:51 pm »
Regarding the timing discrepancy, it might just be a recon, something that had to change for the continuity of where the story is going to make sense. That or there really was blank space and the Ketyai were capable of adding to it.

Something that I mentioned in the Westeros thread, how the Fanim had sworn to destroy the Tusk. Makes me think Fane knew what was going on, and further darkens Kellhus' intent in wiping out the Cishaurim and their religion, both during and after the holy war. Makes it very haunting when Kellhus is using Fanim blood to draw a Tusk on foreheads.

That's true.  While I am definitely not a "Fane was right" kind-of guy, perhaps there is something to it.  By this I mean I never doubted the Fane had "divine" inspiration, I just don't think that the Solitary God is much more than any of the 100.  Perhaps though, he (it) is?  What if the Solitary God is some proto-Kellhus, transcendent?  The question then is, who could have transcended and also know of the Inchoroi deception?

I'm off the rails now...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2015, 07:44:20 pm »
I don't think that's off the rails! One of my predictions for the name of the third series is "The Solitary God."

Wouldn't be surprised if Fane had been a Dunyain that was sent out too soon, like Moenghus might be.

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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2015, 07:57:03 pm »
I don't think that's off the rails! One of my predictions for the name of the third series is "The Solitary God."

Wouldn't be surprised if Fane had been a Dunyain that was sent out too soon, like Moenghus might be.

I'm not sure if I am willing to go that far that he was Dunyain, but I think it is likely that there is something special about the Solitary God's origin.  Hmm, that's got me thinking, time to do some research...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2016, 05:47:56 am »
I think Fane swore destroy the Tusk because by seeing the outside he realized the gods are basically demons feeding on souls. the Tusk commands humans to worship the hundred and as far as I'm aware makes no mention of the God. Now after our latest excerpt everyone basically most Fanim metaphysics. Now  whether the Fanim are saved is open to interpretation but I do have a pet theory that Cishaurim water washes ones soul of sin and that maybe if Fanim worship involves the Cishaurim they can wash the faithful as well.   

Quote
Angeshraël bows himself into a fire, in the presence of a "god" who still walked the world?  A fire that does not consume him, but enlightens him, in other words an Inverse Fire?  What a coincidence that after meeting this "god" he does exactly as the Inchoroi would want him to do, that is, lead the Tribes to Break the Gates.  I think that Angeshraël actually met Aurang on Mount Eshki, where he was seduced by the "truth" as presented in the Fire.  Aurang convinced him to lead the Tribes into Earwa, since he knew that they were losing to the Nonmen, that the Ark was under such siege that it was time to take the fight to the Nonmen's mansions.

Love this idea.
There is no god but God and Fane is the messenger of God