The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]

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Wilshire

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« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2015, 02:40:41 pm »
Yeah it could go either way. I worry about looking to hard though.
I decided in chapter 2 that it might still be the real slim shady. Could still go either way.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2015, 02:54:30 pm »
I absolutely agree Wilshire. It was just something that struck me, as I was looking to see if Simas is a Skin-Spy at the moment. I really enjoy this type of reread, taking it slow and discussing the nuances and hidden gems. First time I've done a group reread and I just hope we dont go lax on offering insights and new finds.

ETA: I'd like Camlost to create a new thread every Sunday and the amount to be read and discussed. Make it easier and I know how much time I have to really look for new clues. It helps, and Camlost has done a great job organizing this. Appreciate your efforts Camlost!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 02:58:50 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

locke

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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2015, 03:11:18 pm »

Good thing we are on a reread then :)

I found it and I was wrong, at least, as far as we know it really was the Cish that did it.  How they did it though, I have no idea, some kind of meta-Psukhe or something I'd guess, probably something Moe dreamed up.
moenghus later refers to as translating, SS later describes what moe calls translating as a door of light being opened, and cishaurim coming through the door.  Meta psukhe for certain.


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H

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« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2015, 03:15:54 pm »
Well, my first thought is that his actions don't really seem suspicious. 

Yet, the end of the chapter basically tells us that someone has infiltrated the Mandate.  This means either Simas has already been replaced, or there is another sleeper.  Since we never learn of another, seems that it must be Simas the whole time.  My best guess is that it is in deep cover.  It was probably instructed to do nothing that would even possibly seem like Simas wouldn't do.

It makes sense, the Simas agent is absolutely the Consult's most valuable asset, being supremely distinct from the other skin-spies we ever see.  Risking it for low-value targets would be a very bad idea.  As it stands, since the Consult has eyes (and ears) on the Mandate and the Mandate has no eyes on the Consult, there is no reason to exposed Simas to even the smallest of scrutiny.

Consider the next chapter though, even though I have yet to reread it, all the clues point to Aurang already knowing about Akka in Sumna and about Inrau.  Therefor, the leak was in the Quarum, leaving again, only the possibility that Simas is already replaced, or that there are two high ranking Mandati replaced.

A second replacement seems highly unlikely though, considering how rare we know the Simas agent to be.  At least, this is how it seems to me...


Good thing we are on a reread then :)

I found it and I was wrong, at least, as far as we know it really was the Cish that did it.  How they did it though, I have no idea, some kind of meta-Psukhe or something I'd guess, probably something Moe dreamed up.
moenghus later refers to as translating, SS later describes what moe calls translating as a door of light being opened, and cishaurim coming through the door.  Meta psukhe for certain.

What then would you think of the possibility that the meta-psukhe could be responsible for "fire incident" with Leweth?  Could it be that Moe was checking in on his plan?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 03:19:39 pm by H »
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

geoffrobro

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« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2015, 03:26:44 pm »
I read Chapter 2 last night and thought I found a clue that Simas is indeed a Skin-Spy at this time.

Quote
There’s strength in scepticism,” Simas continued. “Those who believe thoughtlessly in dangerous times are the first to die. But these are dangerous times, Achamian. More so than in many, many years. Perhaps dangerous enough to be sceptical even of our scepticism, hmm?” Achamian turned to him, caught by something in his tone. Simas’s gaze faltered. A small struggle darkened his face.



I read Chapter 2 last night and thought I found a clue that Simas is indeed a Skin-Spy at this time.

Quote
There’s strength in scepticism,” Simas continued. “Those who believe thoughtlessly in dangerous times are the first to die. But these are dangerous times, Achamian. More so than in many, many years. Perhaps dangerous enough to be sceptical even of our scepticism, hmm?” Achamian turned to him, caught by something in his tone. Simas’s gaze faltered. A small struggle darkened his face.

Meh, could be nothing. But, the small struggle is what made me think it was a clue that he was. Like the skin-spy thought Akka could tell something was amiss.

ETA: Ooh, and another thing, Nautzera talking about skeptics, as in those that think the Consult is no longer. Chasing ghosts. Wouldn't that be the main goal of Simas inside the the Mandate?

that quote is a paradox isnt it? " sceptical even of our scepticism"
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

MSJ

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« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2015, 03:44:34 pm »
geoffrobro, yes, but Simas the Skin-Spy is different, an anomaly so to say. He gained a soul and would therefore be able to grasp a paradox. Because, I often wondered how a Skin-Spy, with no soul would not be detected by the others in the Mandate. Because if you use sorcery, you gain a mark. No soul=no Mark.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2015, 03:47:50 pm »
H, locke's general stance around here is pretty much moenghus is behind everything

Geoffrobro, I don't think that is a paradox. A bit convoluted, but not paradoxical. He's just saying he's unsure of his own feelings. Like when your intellect tells you one thing but you feel something else.

Msj, good point. Being souless is cited as why skin spies can not grasp a paradox. A spy with a soul would not have this trouble. Since you need a soul for sorcery, Simas shouldn't have an issues, spy or otherwise
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 03:51:37 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2015, 04:59:12 pm »
I'd say with 100% certainty Simas is a Skin-Spy at this point. Here's why. At the end of the chapter, when Nautzera and Simas are discussing if they told Akka enough to keep him safe, they mention that the Mandate had been infiltrated. It why's there spies were being outed left and right. Simas is the traitor.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2015, 05:57:55 pm »
Yeah I kind of forgot about that. The mandate informants wouldn't be being hunted with such great success if not for a traitor in the quorum.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

locke

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« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2015, 12:07:36 am »
Why do we think the consult was eliminating mandate spies right on the cusp of the Holy war? What's the motive in moving against them for the consult at this time? The consult doesn't try to kill aka they just monitor his movements.

Doesn't add up.
Yeah I kind of forgot about that. The mandate informants wouldn't be being hunted with such great success if not for a traitor in the quorum.
Before WLW, I would said the leweth fire incident was definitely moe, after kell dabbling in fire watching magic, it could be some other agency.  But moe is the likliest option,  the prologue is pretty clear throughout that kellhus path soutg is carefully conditioned, moe wouldn't leave the most dangerous part if the journey unwatched.



Well, my first thought is that his actions don't really seem suspicious. 

Yet, the end of the chapter basically tells us that someone has infiltrated the Mandate.  This means either Simas has already been replaced, or there is another sleeper.  Since we never learn of another, seems that it must be Simas the whole time.  My best guess is that it is in deep cover.  It was probably instructed to do nothing that would even possibly seem like Simas wouldn't do.

It makes sense, the Simas agent is absolutely the Consult's most valuable asset, being supremely distinct from the other skin-spies we ever see.  Risking it for low-value targets would be a very bad idea.  As it stands, since the Consult has eyes (and ears) on the Mandate and the Mandate has no eyes on the Consult, there is no reason to exposed Simas to even the smallest of scrutiny.

Consider the next chapter though, even though I have yet to reread it, all the clues point to Aurang already knowing about Akka in Sumna and about Inrau.  Therefor, the leak was in the Quarum, leaving again, only the possibility that Simas is already replaced, or that there are two high ranking Mandati replaced.

A second replacement seems highly unlikely though, considering how rare we know the Simas agent to be.  At least, this is how it seems to me...


Good thing we are on a reread then :)

I found it and I was wrong, at least, as far as we know it really was the Cish that did it.  How they did it though, I have no idea, some kind of meta-Psukhe or something I'd guess, probably something Moe dreamed up.
moenghus later refers to as translating, SS later describes what moe calls translating as a door of light being opened, and cishaurim coming through the door.  Meta psukhe for certain.

What then would you think of the possibility that the meta-psukhe could be responsible for "fire incident" with Leweth?  Could it be that Moe was checking in on his plan?


Wilshire

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« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2015, 12:20:01 am »
Why do we think the consult was eliminating mandate spies right on the cusp of the Holy war? What's the motive in moving against them for the consult at this time? The consult doesn't try to kill aka they just monitor his movements.
Who can fathom the consult... But more importantly, if not the Consult, then there is a Mandate defector, which makes far less sense. Who else could hunt and kill all of the Mandate's informants?
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2015, 12:44:52 am »
Why do we think the consult was eliminating mandate spies right on the cusp of the Holy war? What's the motive in moving against them for the consult at this time? The consult doesn't try to kill aka they just monitor his movements.
Who can fathom the consult... But more importantly, if not the Consult, then there is a Mandate defector, which makes far less sense. Who else could hunt and kill all of the Mandate's informants?

Right, its Simas. Who else would know the locations of all Mandate spies.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

locke

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« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2015, 02:06:35 am »
Why do we think the consult was eliminating mandate spies right on the cusp of the Holy war? What's the motive in moving against them for the consult at this time? The consult doesn't try to kill aka they just monitor his movements.
Who can fathom the consult... But more importantly, if not the Consult, then there is a Mandate defector, which makes far less sense. Who else could hunt and kill all of the Mandate's informants?
You're just baiting me with that question.

Regardless who it was, eliminating mandate spies systematically just before the war began caused the result of the Mandate going full turtle for years and they did not participate in the affairs of the realm for the entire war. It scared them so bad the mandate improbably only had one agent monitoring the war and did not even attempt to replace their agent whilst he was incommunicado for exceedingly long stretches.

Who does that advantage and was such an... efficient... outcome intentional or coincidental?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 02:12:57 am by locke »

Wilshire

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« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2015, 12:04:10 pm »
How is it bait? Every question is bait for an answer... my mistake I guess. I'll answer your questions to make up for it.

Who does it advantage? Why, the consult of course. Keeping the mandate secluded is probably their main goal through the centuries, or at least the 300 years they haven't been seen. Why else disappear and control from shadows if not to avoid direct conflict? Sure, they are waiting for no-god, and they are allegedly close at this time. Seems like a perfect time to start hamstring-ing the Mandate.
But really it's advantageous to anyone that doesn't want the mandate involved for any reason. It could be literally any player. SS, empire, heathen, religious, dunyain. It seems every faction wants to control the holy war, and the mandate are a wild card. Best to keep them out. So, since that question doesn't yield answers, we must ask questions that eliminate possabilities...
I've got one: Who would have the power and capacity to hunt so efficiently? Unless we're going the unsubstantiated crackpot route, the only answer I can think of is The Consult.
If anyone has another idea, please share :)

As for whether an efficient outcome was intentional or not... I'm guessing yes it was. It's unlikely a major player would purposefully set out to be intentially inefficient.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 12:07:29 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

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« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2015, 01:10:58 pm »
Why do we think the consult was eliminating mandate spies right on the cusp of the Holy war? What's the motive in moving against them for the consult at this time? The consult doesn't try to kill aka they just monitor his movements.
Who can fathom the consult... But more importantly, if not the Consult, then there is a Mandate defector, which makes far less sense. Who else could hunt and kill all of the Mandate's informants?
You're just baiting me with that question.

Regardless who it was, eliminating mandate spies systematically just before the war began caused the result of the Mandate going full turtle for years and they did not participate in the affairs of the realm for the entire war. It scared them so bad the mandate improbably only had one agent monitoring the war and did not even attempt to replace their agent whilst he was incommunicado for exceedingly long stretches.

Who does that advantage and was such an... efficient... outcome intentional or coincidental?

I think you kind of answered your own question though.

To me, it would seem that the Consult was very passive from the time the Mandate "lost contact" with them up to when Moe started to unveil the skin-spies.  Once that happened, they were drawn into Moe's TTT by the fact that they believed they needed the Cishuarim eliminated, because the simple infiltration couldn't be relied upon if they would detect the skin-spies.  This meant that being passive was not going to cut it, which is why Aurang, probably, wheels out the synthese and takes wing to the Three Seas to oversee the whole operation at this point.  There is also the fact that I think Aurang is very suspicious of how the skin-spies are being caught, which is why he is so interested in learning what's changed now.

Considering this, it makes sense, at least to me, that the Consult switching from passive to active means they'd be interested in cutting off any eyes (or ears) the Mandate would have on them, or more importantly, on those they are looking to manipulate.  The last thing I think they want is the Mandate catching wind of what they are after in the long run of this Holy War.  Even less so would they want an outright confrontation with a Mandate sorcerer.  We know that Akka's power level is pretty high, in reality, so trying to kill him directly would see like a bad idea.  Not only that, because a Chorae could be arranged, the reality is Akka as an agent is valuable to the Consult.  Since the Consult has ears in the Quarum, Akka is actually unwittingly an agent for the Consult.

In the end though, like you pointed out, the Mandate holes up and the Consult couldn't really have asked for more.  I think that Aurang knows full well how to manipulate the Mandate at least somewhat.  If we're right, and I think there is a decent about of circumstantial evidence that we might be, the Simas-agent has been in place for a pretty long time.  The Consult (or at least Aurang) knows pretty well what they are thinking.  While picking off the agents worked splendidly, and no doubt beyond what Aurang had planned, I don't think it was wholly accidental.

On the chapter 3:

Quote
How the God could be equated with the absence of hesitation was something Achamian had never understood. After all, what was the God but the mystery that burdened them all? What was hesitation but a dwelling-within this mystery?

Quote
He could turn this ship into a shining inferno, then walk unscathed across the surface of the water, and yet he could never be . . . certain.

This struck me as ringing true of Omnirom's point that the Mark is measure of "the inherent falseness of the assumption" or at least, the perceived falseness, due to the lack of certainty.  Is this part of what differentiates the Psukhe?  The Cishuaurim definitely seem certain.

Quote
The Chronicle of the Tusk was the most ancient and therefore the most thunderous voice of the past, so ancient that it was itself without any clear history—“innocent,” as the great Ceneian commentator Gaeterius had written.

Oh, Gaeterius, you silly, silly man.  If you only knew...

Quote
An iron hand clamped about the nape of his neck and yanked him forward, lifting his ear to Sarcellus’s lips.
“How I’ve longed to do that, pig,” the man whispered.

This seems to speak to me that Sarcellus has already been replaced.  We know the skin-spies can see Seswatha in Akka and this goes right to that.  Another point that the Consult already knows about Akka and his mission and plan to use him.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira