The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]

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Wilshire

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« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2015, 06:26:25 pm »
Welcome to the forum. I suspect you'll enjoy this reread more than your initial read. So many layers of revelation to be had.

You'll have to be more specific. I dont recall Inrau being upset about something he found, other than the Consult of course.
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H

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« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2015, 06:34:49 pm »
First post here guys. I'm not as well versed in the series as some of you. This will be my first re-read and its been awhile since I first read the books. That being said, one of my favorite series ever and am totally looking forward to The Great Ordeal. Hopefully you guys don't mind a pleb like me asking a few questions.

First of which: do we know what Inrau found in Maithanet's apartments that upset him so ? I don't remember any reference to that later in the books.

Welcome.   Don't feel intimidated, we have all just happened to have read these books a long time ago, so we have the benefit of having rhuminated on all this for years and years.

On what he found, I always just assumed it was the knowledge that Maith was treating with the Scarlet Spires.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

morkypep

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« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2015, 06:39:56 pm »
Quote
My life, he thought. My life.
Inrau lowered his face, tried to grimace away his weeping. If only he could forget. If only . . .
The Shriah. But how could it be?

Quote
Please! Let me forget this!

Quote
“No different, I suppose, from what you were doing in the Shriah’s apartments, hmm?”

I could be wrong, but the writing seems to imply that this takes place right after Inrau had been looking around in the Shriah's apartments and found something that he wants to forget.

Also, thanks for the warm welcoming guys ! I am excited about the reread and hope to get to your Dunyain level.... someday lol

MSJ

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« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2015, 09:05:01 pm »
Quote
My life, he thought. My life.
Inrau lowered his face, tried to grimace away his weeping. If only he could forget. If only . . .
The Shriah. But how could it be?

Quote
Please! Let me forget this!

Quote
“No different, I suppose, from what you were doing in the Shriah’s apartments, hmm?”

I could be wrong, but the writing seems to imply that this takes place right after Inrau had been looking around in the Shriah's apartments and found something that he wants to forget.

Also, thanks for the warm welcoming guys ! I am excited about the reread and hope to get to your Dunyain level.... someday lol

I wondered the same exact thing on every reread I've ever done. Its never confirmed what and your left to fill in the gap. As H said, the Scarlet Spires makes sense. But, I'm not so sure. I've previously had theories that the Dûnyain and the Consult are aligned, unbeknownst to Kelhuss. And as I'm going through my reread I can't shake that feeling again. Kel's meeting with Mek, the sranc staying away, and it seems to me that the Consult's and Dûnyain's line of thinking and goals are eerily similar. I dunno. Its just a feeling I get everytime I read TDTCB. Also, wouldn't it be great if Akka was vindicated for his initial feeling of a Maithenet/Consult alignment? Could this also have something to do with Maithenet's final words in WLW? Inrau could have found that connection.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 09:07:17 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Bolivar

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« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2015, 11:36:08 pm »
This is what makes the connection real for me:

Quote
If only he could have forgotten . . . forgotten what the Mandate had taught him. If he could’ve done that, then this last heartbreaking revelation would have been meaningless to him. If only Achamian had not come. The price was too high.

Throughout the trilogy, the aims of the Holy War and The Consult are the same and the skin spies seem to be working in Momemn to prevent the Ikurei from compromising it... I have more thoughts on that I want to post in The Emperor thread. But this passage really makes it look like Maithanet was aligned with the Consult.

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morkypep

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« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2015, 02:25:53 am »
This is what makes the connection real for me:

Quote
If only he could have forgotten . . . forgotten what the Mandate had taught him. If he could’ve done that, then this last heartbreaking revelation would have been meaningless to him. If only Achamian had not come. The price was too high.

Throughout the trilogy, the aims of the Holy War and The Consult are the same and the skin spies seem to be working in Momemn to prevent the Ikurei from compromising it... I have more thoughts on that I want to post in The Emperor thread. But this passage really makes it look like Maithanet was aligned with the Consult.

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You guys just blew my mind with the Consult and Dunyain alliance theory ! I agree with you Bolivar, i feel like this "heartbreaking revelation" cannot be the fact that the Scarlet Spires are joining the Holy War. This was discussed in the previous chapter and Inrau didn't seem so upset about it during that scene. He must have found something else out !

My only question on the theory is whether it is the Dunyain as a whole who could be possibly be aligned with the Consult, or just Moenghus; and also how this applies to Moenghus's plans for Kellhus and TTT. I really need to re-read that confrontation chapter at the end of TTT.

locke

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« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2015, 02:39:29 am »
INRAU probably found a connection between maithanet and the consult, but that does not prove collaboration nor alliance.

I've always found aurangs comment and inraus opening thoughts tantalizing but relatively inscrutable in indicating anything clearly.

Also kudos on finding aurangs comment about his night with esmenet, that nicely disproves the 12 foot alien rapist theory but not the possession/rape by proxy nor the bird+glamour rapist theory.

Who provided the golden coin, hmm?

Bolivar

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« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2015, 04:41:02 am »
The one thing that could let Maithanet off the hook is if what Inrau found in his apartments pertained to the station of the Shriah in general and not Maithanet in particular.

I'm becoming more wary that the Thousand Temples might be one of the programs the Consult devised to subvert the Three Seas following the Apocalypse. I know a few over at Westeros were wondering why this religion wouldn't have any tenets or commentary on the Apocalypse, despite its founder being born in the years after the catastrophe, among the first following the stillbirths. It would make sense if Inri Sejenus' "reinterpretation" of the Tusk was intended to make it relevant again in the Three Seas, especially its condemnation of sorcery and the Nonmen. It would also make it all so ironic if pious characters like Proyas and all the men of the Tusk were really fighting on behalf of a race as demonic as the Inchoroi.

Already thinking on this, it stood out to me when Achamian described the Summoning Horns at Sumna as such:

Quote
The Summoning Horns, whose bottomless timbre so resembled the ancient war-horns of the Sranc, sounded from behind him.

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H

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« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2015, 01:04:36 pm »
Well, considering what we know of the Tusk, really, all Inrithism is partly a Consult ploy.

If Inrau found some connection between Maithanet and the Consult, what could it have been?  There could be the presumption that he did find this connection, since he connects his dismay to his Mandate knowledge and also it could be surmised that this is why the Consult kills him.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2015, 02:08:43 pm »
The fact that the consult and moenghus seem to want the same thing at this point, mainly, the holy war to march on shimeh, makes it easy to feel like they might be working together in tdtcb.

However, since they end up clearly at odds by the end, I think it extremely unlikely. The Consult want the cishaurim destroyed for the same reasons the other schools fear them, but also because moenghus has been killing skin spies.

I also have trouble seeing why, if the Dunyain were working with any faction, why they would bother throwing together this holy war. It would be much easier to send an actual assassin, with proper information and training, than to do this whole bit. Further, if the consult were in league with the dunyain, what's the point of the epilogue of TWP? It just doesn't fit.

Locke, the golden coin dilemma is hilarious to me. I want to dismiss it as just author oversight, but now that you've brought it up I want it to be important. I also can't get the Monty Python bit with pigeons and coconuts out of my head to take it more seriously.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 02:12:42 pm by Wilshire »
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H

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« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2015, 02:37:08 pm »
The Sarcellus agent could easily be the source of the coin.  It is said by Esment several times how rich he seemed to be.  This means the coin would be nearby, rendering the problem of transport largely moot.  For all we know, Sarcellus agent could have been just outside the door.

There is of course the alternative theory of it simply grasping the coin by the husk.  Naturally, we will have to ask Bakker about the air-speed of an unladened Synthese to know for sure.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2015, 04:00:12 pm »
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
WHAT.... is the average Airspeed velocity of an unladen Synthase?

a band of Earwan travellers seek passage across a bridge...
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« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2015, 04:07:05 pm »
It'd be neat if the coin was really poignant, but I'm thinking it probably just isn't.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Madness

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« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2015, 08:58:28 pm »
First of which: do we know what Inrau found in Maithanet's apartments that upset him so ? I don't remember any reference to that later in the books.

These are the types of questions that I drive myself further insane by debating an answer, given the way my answers collapse ambiguity and mystery by giving indication of what comes after (or that lack).

However, my guess has always been that Inrau found proof of Maithanet's correspondence with his father, Moenghus - more horrifyingly known to Inrau and the Inrithi as Mallahet, especially as Aurang doesn't seem to know what Inrau found either. After all, Inrau already had his evidence that Maithanet did sincerely treat with the Scarlet Spires.
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locke

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« Reply #89 on: December 16, 2015, 12:59:55 am »
First of which: do we know what Inrau found in Maithanet's apartments that upset him so ? I don't remember any reference to that later in the books.

These are the types of questions that I drive myself further insane by debating an answer, given the way my answers collapse ambiguity and mystery by giving indication of what comes after (or that lack).

However, my guess has always been that Inrau found proof of Maithanet's correspondence with his father, Moenghus - more horrifyingly known to Inrau and the Inrithi as Mallahet, especially as Aurang doesn't seem to know what Inrau found either. After all, Inrau already had his evidence that Maithanet did sincerely treat with the Scarlet Spires.
I've always suspected it was something along those lines, but why would moenghus commit anything to writing?