The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]

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Wilshire

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« on: December 15, 2015, 12:29:51 pm »
Kellhus and Cnaiur journey through the trackless steppe.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 12:31:27 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2015, 12:56:29 pm »
Slogging ever onward!

Chapter 12.

Quote
And by demonstrating need, he’d opened his heart, had allowed the serpent to enter.

Clever, clever Bakker.  Even if unintentional, what a great foreshadowing.

Quote
Moënghus’s face rises from the depths of a pool, pale through the greenish cast of the water. Throughout the surrounding darkness, caverns intertwine, like the thin tunnels one finds beneath large stones pulled from the grass. Just beneath the surface, the pale Dûnyain pauses as though tugged by some deep restraint, smiles, and raises his mouth. With horror, Cnaiür watches as an earthworm presses through the smiling lips and pierces the water. It feels the air like a blind finger. Watery and obscene, the bland pink of hidden places. And always, his own inarticulate hand drifts over the pool and, in a quiet moment of insanity, touches it.

Moe in a dark set of "caverns" surround by water?  Is Moe sending these dreams?

Quote
Was this what you intended, Father? Is he an obstacle you’ve placed in my path? Or is he an accident?
Likely the latter, Kellhus decided.

No, I am certainly not buying that.

I'm on the fence about if I believe Kellhus about being on a mission to kill Moe.  Prima-facie, I don't believe it.  Before meeting Cnaiür, he speaks only of meeting Moe, "dwelling in his father's house," not killing him.  I believe he tells Cnaiür he wants to assassinate Moe because he knows this is what will motivate him to help him.

So, what did they really send out Kellhus for?  And for that matter, why did they send Moe out, really?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 12:58:09 pm by H »
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2015, 01:08:45 pm »
H, I had the same quote highlighted in my book, I believe he is sending dreams. Also, I am going to have to take Locke's word that Kelhuss's entire journey to the barrow was conditioned and everything intentional. Because, I think that quote is a clue to Moe sending Cnauir a dream the morning he goes to the barrow.

Quote
Why had he come here? What purpose could such a solitary pilgrimage serve? No wonder his tribe thought him mad. He was a man who took counsel with the dead rather than the wise.

This in and of itself means very little, but everytime I read that scene it strikes me, "Indeed, why did you come here Cnaüir?". It seems Moe is in league with someone to get Kelhuss as far as he did, and that quote indicates he could influence Cnaüir also. For the sending of dreams to work you have to know where the receiver sleeps. No problems there, the White Yaksh. I will warn everyone though, that this theory that Moe is in league with the Consult is very prevelant in TDTCB, not so much after this book, I looked. But, what are rereads for? I hope you guys can find some more connections.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2015, 01:11:37 pm »
Moe in league with Mek to drive him ever further south, to the Steppe, perhaps?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2015, 01:16:01 pm »
Moe in league with Mek to drive him ever further south, to the Steppe, perhaps?

It would seem Moe is definitely in league with Mek. Here's the thing though, that doesn't mean the Consult. We know Mek has flipped allegiances before and what would stop him now? I dont wanna get too far ahead, but at the end of TWP, we have Aurang flying above the carnage and he asks a simple question, "Who are the Dûnyain?". So at the very least Aurang has no clue, it makes a Dûnyain/Consult connection seem impossible.

ETA: after all, what would be more memorable than willing the Consult off the face of Earwa? Nonmen, its all about memories.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 01:20:22 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2015, 01:19:43 pm »
Moe in league with Mek to drive him ever further south, to the Steppe, perhaps?

It would seem Moe is definitely in league with Mek. Here's the thing though, that doesn't mean the Consult. We know Mek has flipped allegiances before and what would stop him now? I dont wanna get too far ahead, but at the end of TWP, we have Aurang flying above the carnage and he asks a simple question, "Who are the Dûnyain?". So at the very least Aurang has no clue, it makes a Dûnyain/Consult connection seem impossible.

Yeah, I definitely don't buy the whole Dûnyain/Consult direct connection, because A&A put forth a heck of a lot of effort to discover more about them and are punished for the lack of knowledge, time and again.

I can absolutely buy Mek stirring the pot though, no doubt completely aloof.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2015, 01:21:58 pm »
Another thing that gives us a hint to Mek, is that Bakker was pissed off at himself that he revealed who Mek was. Before long, I believe we'll be seeing a lot of Mek.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2015, 01:29:22 pm »
Another thing that gives us a hint to Mek, is that Bakker was pissed off at himself that he revealed who Mek was. Before long, I believe we'll be seeing a lot of Mek.

Exactly, if it Mek's identity wasn't of consequence, the revelation wouldn't mean much.  Presumably though, it did though.

Actually, thinking along these lines, Cnaiür says they found Moe as a captive of a band of Sranc.  Since when do Sranc take captives?  No, this would seem to also point to the Mek-Moe connection.  He was no captive, he was traveling with Mek's band of Sranc and used them to guide himself to the Steppe.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 01:36:02 pm by H »
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2015, 01:33:00 pm »
Brilliant, H. It never made sense to me that Moe would survive because he is Dûnyain. Sranc are sranc, and meat is well....meat. If Moe didn't have a connection with them, then he simply would not have lived.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2015, 01:40:04 pm »
Brilliant, H. It never made sense to me that Moe would survive because he is Dûnyain. Sranc are sranc, and meat is well....meat. If Moe didn't have a connection with them, then he simply would not have lived.

Yeah, the line hit me upon this reread, but I didn't draw the conclusion until we delved into the connection further.

Quote
“It speaks the language,” the man muttered at length. He stepped closer, peering at Kellhus. “Yes,” he said. “Yes . . . You do not merely mock me. I can see his blood in your face.”
Kellhus again was silent.
“You have the patience of an Anasûrimbor as well.”

To go back to the Prologue for a moment, I have, before, entertained the idea that the he Mek refers to is not Celmomas, but is actually Moënghus, having met him when he first left Ishual.  In fact, in this case, it is what set the whole plot in motion.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2015, 01:50:39 pm »
Haha, I love it. And now we know why Madness has to refrain from rereads and discussions. This is pretty compelling and solid evidence we have here. And, I'm 98.5238% sure its true. It just lines everything up nice and neat as to how Kelhuss wouldve survived, because without the help of Moe/Mek, he simply doesn't. Mek is probably going to be the huge plot twist that this whole story hinges upon. He could be who is still carrying out parts of Moe's original TTT. Now, I'm not saying he's the mastermind because he is erratic, but he could still be pulling unseen strings.

ETA: And regardless of what others think I believe Moe is still involved in this story, too. We'll discuss that when we get there though.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 02:07:31 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2015, 02:16:04 pm »
Hmm, I also thought that could have been a sent dream, however I think it could be far less than engineering kellhus' entire journey.

For some reason if Moe knew kell was in trouble and would end up on Skiotha's barrow, it seems reasonable that Moe would send a dream that would encourage Cnaiur to go rescue him.

Mek referring to Moe and not Cel is something I had not considered. That could fit, but I still don't see Moe as the master planner of kellhus' entire journey. The dude nearly dies like 4 times, if anything that points to Moe being almost as incompetent as kel (if in fact he was preparing most of the journy).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 02:20:57 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2015, 02:22:03 pm »
Quote
Was this what you intended, Father? Is he an obstacle you’ve placed in my path? Or is he an accident?
Likely the latter, Kellhus decided.

No, I am certainly not buying that.

I'm on the fence about if I believe Kellhus about being on a mission to kill Moe.  Prima-facie, I don't believe it.  Before meeting Cnaiür, he speaks only of meeting Moe, "dwelling in his father's house," not killing him.  I believe he tells Cnaiür he wants to assassinate Moe because he knows this is what will motivate him to help him.

So, what did they really send out Kellhus for?  And for that matter, why did they send Moe out, really?

Well, we have the "Who is the Manipulator" thread, and my belief that Seswatha is that Manipulator. That theory hinges on a lot of "what if's", but let's talk about what we know.

1) When Kelhuss firsts leaves Ishual, all he ever says is that he is going to find his father in Shimeh. No inner dialogue about killing him.

2) he tells Leweth that he is going to his father in Shimeh, nothings has changed.

3) As you said, when he realizes Cnaüir wants to kill his father that is when we first hear that is Kelhuss's mission. Ain't buying it, all Dûnyain are lying liars who lie to meet their needs. Cnaüir knows this, but he wants this more than anything and is therefore tricked. Kelhuss even considers killing Cnaüir after the Steepe.

4)We hear the story of Moe being sent out to kill a band of Sranc and then being exiled because he's polluted.

Which I ain't buying. Remember when Kel first mmets the sranc? He has no idea what these creature are. He studies one before Mek shows up. He didn't know what the prints were when he showed them to Leweth. Leweth even remarked upon this, " You live in the North, and you dont know these?". This is all a story Kel uses to further his goal to Shimeh with Cnaüir. Really, anything we could come up with as to the true purpose of sending out Moe then Kelhuss by the Dûnyain, is pure speculation. But, its not the story Kelhuss gives us, that much I'm sure of.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2015, 02:28:27 pm »
Mek referring to Moe and not Cel is something I had not considered. That could fit, but I still don't see Moe as the master planner of kellhus' entire journey. The dude nearly dies like 4 times, if anything that points to Moe being almost as incompetent as kel (if in fact he was preparing most of the journy).

Yes, on the face of it, sure. But, what if Mek was supposed to guide him to the steppe? What if Mek just couldn't resist creating the memory? Or simply, Moe doesn't want Kelhuss to know much about Mek. Because in the end, Kelhuss is the tool of Moe and still is as of WLW. Hey, we all say how Kelhuss thinks he's always right but isn't, and the great irony would be that he is just a tool of someone.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2015, 03:48:53 pm »
Yeah I think he's someones tool, but I doubt we've met anyone that isn't . Whoever isnt... comes before.
One of the other conditions of possibility.