The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]

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The Lost Dunyain

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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2015, 04:26:07 pm »
I think there is a mention somewhere that Sranc do take prisoners, but that most of them don't survive, and hence everyone's surprise that Moenghus had survived. While it is possible that the Sranc travelling with Moenghus were controlled by Mek, another possibility is that they were cowed by Moenghus and his martial abilities. In the prologue, when Kellhus slaughters a large number of Sranc before the confrontation with Mek, the surviving Sranc actually become frightened and run away from him. If Moenghus wanted to cross the Steppe but was not aware of the presence of Scylvendi, he may well have decided to use the Sranc as guides. Such a thing would of course sound unbelievable to the Utemot who found him, and hence they would have assumed him to be a prisoner.

Regarding what Kellhus says about Moenghus' banishment from Ishual, if he is not speaking the truth, then why does he concoct such an elaborate lie about Moenghus going out to kill Sranc and getting polluted and hence being banished? Why not simply say that Moenghus committed some crime according to Dunyain laws, and or that he was an experiment to see what a Dunyain could do among world-born men or something? Either Kellhus is telling the truth, and there is some logic behind the lie, but I cannot figure out how this particular lie could sound more convincing to Cnaiur or whether it has any other purpose.

MSJ

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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2015, 04:46:44 pm »
TLD, great points. Though I can't really see a band of sranc being cowed and manipulated into guiding a Man, doesn't fit their MO.

But, why doesn't Kelhuss show any previous knowledge of sranc when he first confronts them? Doesn't know what their tracks are. It just seems this story is a culmination of what Kelhuss has come across in his journey, and a reasonable story for Cnaüir to believe.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2015, 06:37:37 pm »
I would imagine that if Sranc took a prisoner, there wouldn't be much left at the end.  No, I feel it's far more likely that Moe manipulated the whole situation, knowing full well that it would be highly suspect if he arrived with a Sranc entourage, it would be highly suspicious.  Odd, but plausible that he was a prisoner and somehow survived.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2015, 10:46:51 pm »
Sorry I worded my response a bit different than I was thinking. I dont think Moe simply awed and cowed the Sranc into submission. Rather I think he manipulated Mek into arranging the scenario with the sranc. Yes, Moe manipulated the situation.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

locke

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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2015, 12:48:35 am »
I think there is a mention somewhere that Sranc do take prisoners, but that most of them don't survive, and hence everyone's surprise that Moenghus had survived. While it is possible that the Sranc travelling with Moenghus were controlled by Mek, another possibility is that they were cowed by Moenghus and his martial abilities. In the prologue, when Kellhus slaughters a large number of Sranc before the confrontation with Mek, the surviving Sranc actually become frightened and run away from him. If Moenghus wanted to cross the Steppe but was not aware of the presence of Scylvendi, he may well have decided to use the Sranc as guides. Such a thing would of course sound unbelievable to the Utemot who found him, and hence they would have assumed him to be a prisoner.

Regarding what Kellhus says about Moenghus' banishment from Ishual, if he is not speaking the truth, then why does he concoct such an elaborate lie about Moenghus going out to kill Sranc and getting polluted and hence being banished? Why not simply say that Moenghus committed some crime according to Dunyain laws, and or that he was an experiment to see what a Dunyain could do among world-born men or something? Either Kellhus is telling the truth, and there is some logic behind the lie, but I cannot figure out how this particular lie could sound more convincing to Cnaiur or whether it has any other purpose.
The key is "pollution" kellhus adopts an association between moenghus and pollution that cnaiur already believes: moe polluted me, moe is polluted, moe is unclean, etc... by using this verbal formulation of 'moenghus was polluted ...', kellhus crafts a lie cnaiur would never consider questioning because he already believes it intrinsically.

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« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2015, 12:30:06 pm »
Finished chapters 13 and 14.

Quote
She smiled tears of rapturous joy. She could see him as he truly was now, radiant with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

This is the first time we have someone see the halos.

Also, we have Serwë's insistence that the baby is Kellhus'.  I'm not sure what to make of that though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2015, 12:59:49 pm »
Finished chapters 13 and 14.

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She smiled tears of rapturous joy. She could see him as he truly was now, radiant with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

This is the first time we have someone see the halos.

Also, we have Serwë's insistence that the baby is Kellhus'.  I'm not sure what to make of that though.

Yea, this is where I get mighty confused as to why Serwe is so important/sacred to the books. I get that her belief in Kelhuss is what made the haloes appear. But, she is delusional, right? Kelhuss even remarks that they haven't even slept together. The metaphysics and all that seem to be above me here. I can't sort it out for nothing.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2015, 02:05:18 pm »
Finished chapters 13 and 14.

Quote
She smiled tears of rapturous joy. She could see him as he truly was now, radiant with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

This is the first time we have someone see the halos.

Also, we have Serwë's insistence that the baby is Kellhus'.  I'm not sure what to make of that though.

Yea, this is where I get mighty confused as to why Serwe is so important/sacred to the books. I get that her belief in Kelhuss is what made the haloes appear. But, she is delusional, right? Kelhuss even remarks that they haven't even slept together. The metaphysics and all that seem to be above me here. I can't sort it out for nothing.

Yeah, I can't say I get it either.  Is it her "innocence" that spawns it?  I don't think so, she really isn't all that innocent to me.  Then again, maybe she is though, driven to things by forces beyond her control.

No, I would guess it has to do with her desire to believe.  She wants to believe Kellhus is a savior, just like she wants to believe the baby is his.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2015, 02:08:29 pm »
Yep, something about belief and conviction make truth.

As for the baby though,  that chick is crazy.

Crackpot, the dreams sent to the dunyain were sent by future ascended god kellhus, telling him to kill his son Moenghus at shimeh, where he is born. "Send me my son", kellhus asking himself to send his no-son to the afterlife. Moenghus Jr is the no-god.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 02:11:58 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2015, 02:34:52 pm »
Yep, something about belief and conviction make truth.

As for the baby though,  that chick is crazy.

Considering how she went from coddled, to thrown to the wolves, to further wolves, can't say I'd blame her.

Crackpot, the dreams sent to the dunyain were sent by future ascended god kellhus, telling him to kill his son Moenghus at shimeh, where he is born. "Send me my son", kellhus asking himself to send his no-son to the afterlife. Moenghus Jr is the no-god.

Did this just turn into Book of the New Sun?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2015, 03:24:13 pm »
Won't know till the end, eh.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

locke

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« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2015, 03:40:22 pm »
Finished chapters 13 and 14.

Quote
She smiled tears of rapturous joy. She could see him as he truly was now, radiant with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

This is the first time we have someone see the halos.

Also, we have Serwë's insistence that the baby is Kellhus'.  I'm not sure what to make of that though.
Quote
Yea, this is where I get mighty confused as to why Serwe is so important/sacred to the books. I get that her belief in Kelhuss is what made the haloes appear. But, she is delusional, right? Kelhuss even remarks that they haven't even slept together. The metaphysics and all that seem to be above me here. I can't sort it out for nothing.
kellhus doesn't have to be the holy one.  If serwe is the holy one, she could presumably make those whom she blesses/anoints holy as well. It's not her belief, it's her status and her abilities/powers.

And if it all flows through serwe kellhus will never realize it, because he'll just assume that she is deluded and overreacting to his manipulations.  In other words, he'll be blind to the truth because he never think to question whether or not it could be true--it's a self deception he already wants to believe.  Exactly like cnaiur and pollution+moenghus.

As for the baby it is clearly moes, and serwes claims are probably a coping mechanism.  That said, earwa metaphysics of adoption are unclear. Perhaps serwe insisting the child is kellhus later came true when kellhus adopted the child. Think of it terms of ancestors, of ancestors agglomerate in the outside afterlife and can be petitioned on ones behalf does an adopted child have a metaphysical connection to his adopted families ancestors or is he stuck unless he can figure out how to petition his birth parent ancestors? Given the modern day insistence about adoption making real family, I could see earwa making this metaphysically true.


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Wilshire

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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2015, 04:04:15 pm »
Any word on why Serwe would be the chosen one to being with?
One of the other conditions of possibility.

locke

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« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2015, 06:37:11 pm »
Any word on why Serwe would be the chosen one to being with?
Nope, but no one knows why peasant Mary was chosen by God either.  It's better than being the chosen one because of lame genetic "the farm boy is a secret prince " reasons.

Also she may have the judging eye her children were still births.

MSJ

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« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2015, 06:42:49 pm »
Any word on why Serwe would be the chosen one to being with?
Nope, but no one knows why peasant Mary was chosen by God either.  It's better than being the chosen one because of lame genetic "the farm boy is a secret prince " reasons.

Also she may have the judging eye her children were still births.

Well, all could very well be true besides the still births. Her babies were born alive then choked to death, making them blue babies.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,