The Slog TDTCB - Concluding Respite [Spoilers]

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Madness

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« on: December 19, 2015, 06:23:02 pm »
Just thought I'd make a concluding thoughts thread. It seems, arbitrarily mapping from Sunday to Saturday and Wilshire's notation in TWP's The First March thread, that the Slog "is set" to finish TDTCB on Boxing Day.

I've quoted some of Camlost's ideas below concerning the organization of TWP, which roughly mirrors TDTCB's structures and serves a couple hundred page morsel every week, and TTT. Since the threads have been created following his notation but the time-scale was never really agreed upon, this is something that might be formalized before really diving into TWP.

Likewise, I've noticed some tangents take discussion within the threads far beyond the content therein. Do whatever you all will with the threads but I encourage you again to take some of deeper nerdaneling to specific threads - for instance, the discussion of whether the Dunyain are in-league with the Consult via Moenghus' journey and the Simas anomaly or the analysis of the Esmenet/Synthese confrontation (for which we have many threads, including Esmenet & Aurang).

Also, I'd like to get a Cast organized for the discussion of The Slog and its conclusion of TDTCB - but as always need people to partake. I'm willing to play host and moderator and I'll volunteer Wilshire to record - willingly, I hope ;) - but it'd be nice to get some new content-generating members to commit.

So - following the arbitrary mapping of dates - a week's break could coincide nicely with that festive portion of our commercial year between the 27th and the 2nd of '16. We might plan - possibly even accomplish a Cast - in that time and it will allow time to digest and pick up fresh in the New Year.

A final prompt - Camlost's one hundredish page reading weeks, if begun on Jan 3rd, are still only going to take the Slog through PON until mid-March, if that. That leaves about three and a half months to read TJE and WLW before the Summer Solstice (which is almost exactly two weeks until TGO's supposed release ;) )... which just seems like too much time, though you could eat up time with week respites per book and Cast organization.

TDTCB and TWP both lend themselves to easy delineation. The former breaks down into five parts (the Sorcerer, the Emperor, the Harlot, the Warrior, and the Holy War) while the latter is broken down into three major parts (the First, Second, and Third March). I had toyed with the idea of dividing things by viewpoint characters, but that gets muddy and often plot points overlap each other.

However, TTT: As such, I'd recommend we chunk the first four chapters: Caraskand and Enathpaneah together, the following six: Xerash and Joktha, chapters eleven and twelve: Holy Amoteu, and finally the culminating chapters: Shimeh. This works out to anywhere from 100-200 pages per subdivision, but I think it makes for the easiest means of organization.

Which is still only seven weeks of reading for TWP and TTT.

More on TWP:

I'll take a closer look at the following books as we approach them, but a cursory glance at TWP looks as if a decent guideline would be Ch. 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-17 (slight stretch there for discussion's sake), 18-21, and then round it off 22-25.

If more people feel that a syllabus of sorts will help keep them on track, I can spend a little more time putting together something more comprehensive than what is listed above.

Lol - first you need people to take the class, Camlost ;).
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MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2015, 10:22:06 pm »
So, this re-read is really bringing out a lot that I haven't previously noticed or thought about. H and I coming to the conclusion that Moe probably conspires with Mek. That Istriya has apparently been a Skin-Spy the entirety of the book. Skeaös only after he was going to be in the way of the Consults plans. Inrau look at the shit storm you've created about what you found in Maithenet's apartments. All in all, it's been very enjoyable and I think our pacing is great.

ETA: As to whether or not Kellhus's mission always was to kill his father, the what comes before of TWP might change the minds of those who think it always was his mission.  ;)
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2015, 11:07:15 pm »
I'm buying another copy of TDTCB tonight for kindle and will catch up, reading the slog has got me in the mood again.

locke

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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2015, 01:37:59 am »
So, this re-read is really bringing out a lot that I haven't previously noticed or thought about. H and I coming to the conclusion that Moe probably conspires with Mek. That Istriya has apparently been a Skin-Spy the entirety of the book. Skeaös only after he was going to be in the way of the Consults plans. Inrau look at the shit storm you've created about what you found in Maithenet's apartments. All in all, it's been very enjoyable and I think our pacing is great.

ETA: As to whether or not Kellhus's mission always was to kill his father, the what comes before of TWP might change the minds of those who think it always was his mission.  ;)
Doubtful. People get extraordinarily close-minded and issue furious denials and complex excuses whenever a what has come before section is referenced in a way that challenges cherished and deeply held beliefs.

And since this is Bakker, them having that reaction more or less proves them wrong, imo.

MSJ

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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2015, 02:14:04 am »
Yea, I've come to the belief that we cannot take the text in and of itself as the whole truth. Bakker is gonna lay way us with revelation after revelation. And we'll go back and see clue after clue. I think that is his main point of these books. To try and out think everyone. Ever are men deceived.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2015, 03:02:28 am »
So, this re-read is really bringing out a lot that I haven't previously noticed or thought about. H and I coming to the conclusion that Moe probably conspires with Mek. That Istriya has apparently been a Skin-Spy the entirety of the book. Skeaös only after he was going to be in the way of the Consults plans. Inrau look at the shit storm you've created about what you found in Maithenet's apartments. All in all, it's been very enjoyable and I think our pacing is great.

ETA: As to whether or not Kellhus's mission always was to kill his father, the what comes before of TWP might change the minds of those who think it always was his mission.  ;)

Doubtful. People get extraordinarily close-minded and issue furious denials and complex excuses whenever a what has come before section is referenced in a way that challenges cherished and deeply held beliefs.

And since this is Bakker, them having that reaction more or less proves them wrong, imo.

I really should go through and find the discrepancies I feel I've noted in my own readings over the years but there are Bakker quotes regarding the fallability of the TTT Glossary and when Wilshire went to Waterloo a number of years ago for the Ch. 3 Excerpt reading, Bakker told him outright that the What Has Come Before sections contained falsities.

EDIT: Wilshire asked him about the TTT Glossary:

Quote
Some guy in a blue letterman jacket asked if the appendix at the end of TTT was supposed to be objective and truthful.
Bakker said that he wanted to create an appendix, a big one, that had bits and pieces (and whole sections)that were purposely misleading or simply wrong. He said that it was, just like everyting else, a fallible source of information.
Then he went on to say that he is working on a new appendix, and that it will not be included in TUC.

Which we now know will be included in TAE #4, TUC-proper.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 03:12:58 am by Madness »
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locke

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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2015, 04:05:04 am »
Like everything else

In other words both can be fallible, we don't know which one is right, or if any are.


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H

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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2015, 11:52:04 am »
Well, I apologize again for making the TWP post too early.

As to the "What Came Before" sections, to be honest, I really never read them, since I have a good idea what had happened.  Thinking about it now though, if anything, those sections are probably big clues as to what we are "supposed" to believe, in other words, what the text is supposed to be leading us to.  In other words, big lies.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

locke

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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2015, 03:19:08 pm »

Well, I apologize again for making the TWP post too early.

As to the "What Came Before" sections, to be honest, I really never read them, since I have a good idea what had happened.  Thinking about it now though, if anything, those sections are probably big clues as to what we are "supposed" to believe, in other words, what the text is supposed to be leading us to.  In other words, big lies.
one thing the what has come before is definitively good at is pronunciation.  If you listen to the audio book of ttt, the one hour ish it takes them to read the what has come before covers the names of every character faction and location. Like, I didn't know it was at-tree-thow or shy-meh or zi-nee-mus or zer-rye-us until I listened to that.


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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2015, 03:31:47 pm »

Well, I apologize again for making the TWP post too early.

As to the "What Came Before" sections, to be honest, I really never read them, since I have a good idea what had happened.  Thinking about it now though, if anything, those sections are probably big clues as to what we are "supposed" to believe, in other words, what the text is supposed to be leading us to.  In other words, big lies.
one thing the what has come before is definitively good at is pronunciation.  If you listen to the audio book of ttt, the one hour ish it takes them to read the what has come before covers the names of every character faction and location. Like, I didn't know it was at-tree-thow or shy-meh or zi-nee-mus or zer-rye-us until I listened to that.

Ah, I've never listened to any of them really.  Since Scott adheres to the "there is no canonical pronunciation" school, those are really as good as any others, I'd guess.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Bolivar

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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2015, 06:17:17 pm »
I finished it last night. I was waiting on some new copies to be delievered, so I started a little behind you guys, but I devoured it quickly enough to catch up. The Darkness is my favorite book in the series and my first time rereading it only enhanced my appreciation for it.

Going back to where the series began amplified just how little has been revealed since. There's a section at the end where many of the characters are asking themselves about the truth of what they witnessed and what it means for the future and it stood out to me how we still don't know. I felt like we knew who the Consult are and their motivations by now, especially after The False Sun, but now I wonder if we really do.

Looking forward to the rest of the Slog!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 06:19:06 pm by Bolivar »

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2015, 10:25:29 pm »
Furious denials and complex explinations at challenged beliefs is what the majority of discourse here. I agree that this reaction likely means they are wrong. However, this is not particularly enlightening. If you Occam's Razor everything,  then the text itself is the objective truth. Unfortunately, Bakker has said otherwise, to me directly and elsewhere. So, then, feeling denial and offering complex explanations is no more a tell for wrongness than othwerwise.

In fact, I will posist, that feel like it should be wrong is in fact wrong, ad infinitum. Very Bakkery.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2015, 10:44:08 pm »
Bolivar, what other goals or agendas could the Consult have? I've always been on board that their goal is to avoid damnation. In fact, I see nothing else it could be. I could be wrong though, nothing unusual about that.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Bolivar

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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2015, 11:36:53 pm »
Bolivar, what other goals or agendas could the Consult have? I've always been on board that their goal is to avoid damnation. In fact, I see nothing else it could be. I could be wrong though, nothing unusual about that.
I don't know. When I finished Darkness, I was surprised at just how little he revealed about the Consult in the first book. Then it occurred to me - how much has he really revealed since? The Thousandfold Thought more or less seems to spell it out, and everything since then somewhat confirms it. But finishing the first book on the reread gives me the ominous feeling that we're not seeing the full picture.

It's actually something that was planted in my mind the first time I read The False Sun the right way (on his blog, not the website). At one point, Titirga outright asks Shaeonanra if he truly believes he's not being coerced:

Quote
“But what, Shaeönanra? What is it you have seen? Your damnation or your goad?”

Being that conviction from manipulation is one of the central issues of the series, I find it alluring that the Inchoroi turn a population against itself in order to achieve their ends, first through the Nonmen with the promise of immortality, then with Men through the Tusk, and possibly later with The Holy Consult and Inrithism.

If I had to guess what else they could possibly be after, I think Bakker's recently published Crash Space and how it ended would be instructive. The Inchoroi are a race that have written out guilt and shame from their neurological system and extended their lives across milennia. At this point, genetically engineering themselves to look like demons and wiping out entire planets with dragons and a living space ship is the only thing that can give their lives excitement after thousands of years of hedonism.

Think of the Nonmen - they're not fighting for their souls, it's just the only thing giving their lives some semblance of meaning. This is what Mekeritrig tells Kellhus:

Quote
“As the ages waxed, some of us needed more than your childish squabbles to remember. Some of us needed a more exquisite brutality than any of your feuds could render. The great curse of our kind— do you know it?

locke

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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2015, 07:10:30 am »

Furious denials and complex explinations at challenged beliefs is what the majority of discourse here.

In fact, I will posist, that feel like it should be wrong is in fact wrong, ad infinitum. Very Bakkery.
you hit the humor of my comment right on the flat part at the top of the nail. :)

Love the latter bit.


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