The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]

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Bolivar

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« on: January 20, 2016, 10:43:38 pm »
Figured a lot of people would be done with the book by now, and it's time for this thread anyhow  :)

What stood out to me was the extent to which the Holy War really was doomed at Caraskand - Kellhus' own internal dialogue sealed it for me. He truly couldn't figure his way out of that one and surrendered himself as a last resort "leap of faith," as TTT's What Came Before called it, knowing he'd be dead anyway even if it failed. Without that incredibly unlikely success, the Holy War was assuredly destroyed.

Cards on the table - this reread made me question if Moenghus was doing everything he could to destroy the Holy War before Shimeh. First the deal with the Ikurei, which the skin spies did everything possible to talk Xerius out of. It completely uprooted Maithanet's ploy to play the Nansur, by keeping them in the dark about the Scarlet Spires treaty. And calling in Kellhus was a destructive move on so many levels. First, he knew a Dunyain would divide the Holy War into internecine conflict between Orthodox and Zaudunyani. Second, the return of an Anasurimbor by asking specifically for his son also subverted the Consult, who were very much one of the Great Factions seeking to destroy the Cishaurim. If nothing else, Kellhus would be able to outsmart Maithanet as a true Dunyain. I've always asked myself why Moenghus asked for his son instead of the most capable Dunyain. My crackpot is that this war was between Moenghus and Maithanet, the latter of whom had made a pact with the Consult, which Inrau's final scene strongly suggested.

As far as the Circumfixion, it still remains one of the biggest mysteries of the series for me. I think it intentionally mirrors the beginning of the book, where Kellhus prophesies Saubon's victory, the impossibility of which he decides to try again at the end of the book.

MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2016, 12:42:56 am »
To add to the bit Bolivar put forth about Kellhus not being able to see past the Circumfix, I had this passage highlighted from my re-read.

Quote
The path, Father … Where’s the path? No matter how many times he submitted to the rigours of the Probability Trance, all the lines were extinguished, either by disaster or by the weight of excessive permutations. The variables were too many, the possibilities too precipitous.

The cryptic passage from the second march did make it seem as if he had this all figured out. It seems as the Circumfix is essential to the Thousandfold Thought, it's what seizes the Holy War for Kellhus. But, as Bolivar said, it was purely a roll of the number sticks. There was no way the outcome could be predicted.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

locke

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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2016, 02:00:59 am »
If it is a war between moe and maitha,  could maitha have summoned kellhus? Not moe?

locke

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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2016, 02:09:23 am »
The who are the dunyain scene suggests that maithanet was not actively plotting with them

MSJ

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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2016, 04:12:16 am »
I can't see it as a war between Moe and Maithenet. The letter to Proyas to assist Akka seems as if he's taking orders from Moe.  Maithenet basically becomes irrelevant in TAE, if it was a war between them two, I don't think that would be the case.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2016, 12:29:36 pm »
OK, on to chapter 18:

Quote
When the first of the Great Names at last beat and hollered their way to the floor of the depression, they found Prince Kellhus at the bottom of a pit, standing knee-deep in waters with a dozen others, hoisting brimming skins to the groping hands above.
“He showed me,” he laughed, when they hailed them. “The God showed me!”

So, how did Kellhus find the water?  Did he just guess?  I'm definitely not buying a gos showing him...

Chapter 19:

Do we find out how Akka summoned the Wrathi doll?  I can't recall.

Chapter 20:

Quote
The Shrial Knight blinked in irritation. Despite his pious appearance, there was, Conphas thought, something about his bearing, some whiff of conceit perhaps, that belied the gold-embroidered tusk across his breast … Perhaps he’d misjudged this Sarcellus.

It's interesting that Conphas recognizes that something about Sarcellus is slightly off, but of course he can't place just what it is...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2016, 12:38:06 pm »
"He knows the Pragma have sent me as an assassin."
"He needs to be certain of me first"

When talking with the Cish that seeks him out.

Also from that passage something that stuck out.

"He leapt backward, drawing his sword. The Sorcerer-priest sailed over the balustrade, his hands pressed together, fingertip to fingertip.

"Anasurimbor Kellhus!" the descending figure called.

Meeting his reflection, the Cishaurim came to a jarring halt. Flecks of debris chattered across the po9lished marble."

Kellhus stood motionless,holding tight his chorae.

He's too young-----

Meeting his reflection? What does that mean? He looks just like Kellhus? After all Kellhus would have been able to see he was not his father from much farther away surely? Not realise he was just too young when face to face?

Anyway that's the 2nd explicit reference to Kellhus being an assassin sent by the Pragma.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 12:45:28 pm by themerchant »

themerchant

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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2016, 12:40:06 pm »
Also this section is my favourite part of the whole series, from Akka escaping/ Cnaiur sneaking into Carkasand to the hoisting of the head at the end.

EDIT: I think Kellhus just felt the moisture for the water, googling water in desert shows there are techniques to do so. I assume he just worked out how to do it.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 12:44:31 pm by themerchant »

MSJ

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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2016, 12:47:57 pm »
Merchant, I seen that quote about the pragma's sending him as an assassin. I feel I must concede the fact to you.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2016, 12:52:52 pm »
Quote
Chapter 19:

Do we find out how Akka summoned the Wrathi doll?  I can't recall.

When Akka is first interrogated he speaks two words to the dismay of what that will do to him. I can go find the quote if you need me too.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2016, 01:45:28 pm »
Quote
Chapter 19:

Do we find out how Akka summoned the Wrathi doll?  I can't recall.

When Akka is first interrogated he speaks two words to the dismay of what that will do to him. I can go find the quote if you need me too.


Ah, yeah, that makes sense, I do recall that now, no need for a quote.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Bolivar

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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2016, 02:20:47 pm »
The who are the dunyain scene suggests that maithanet was not actively plotting with them

Yes but we know Aurang learned something about the Dunyain and Moenghus in between then and when he meets Cnaiur in TTT. He may have found someone in the North who encountered Moenghus when he first went south. But perhaps he learned from Maithanet, since he also knows that Moenghus is a bigger threat than Kellhus at that point.


So, how did Kellhus find the water?  Did he just guess?  I'm definitely not buying a gos showing him...

As the merchant said, I think he was able to figure it out on his own, knowing the Khirgwi were somehow staying replenished enough to continue assaulting them.

MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2016, 03:21:41 pm »

But perhaps he learned from Maithanet, since he also knows that Moenghus is a bigger threat than Kellhus at that point.

How does Aurang know that Kellhus is the bigger threat? There is literally zero textual evidence that outside of Kellhus the Consult even knows anything about the Dunyâin.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Bolivar

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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2016, 04:24:49 pm »

But perhaps he learned from Maithanet, since he also knows that Moenghus is a bigger threat than Kellhus at that point.

How does Aurang know that Kellhus is the bigger threat? There is literally zero textual evidence that outside of Kellhus the Consult even knows anything about the Dunyâin.
I meant Moenghus:

Quote
Cnaiür spat, turned to the plate of the Meneanor, to the great finger of moonlight that divided its black back. “And the Dûnyain?”
“We need him to find the other …Moënghus. He’s the greater threat.”

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Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2016, 05:02:22 pm »
Also this section is my favourite part of the whole series, from Akka escaping/ Cnaiur sneaking into Carkasand to the hoisting of the head at the end.

EDIT: I think Kellhus just felt the moisture for the water, googling water in desert shows there are techniques to do so. I assume he just worked out how to do it.

This, and the whole march, shows Kellhus has figured out some wilderness survival skills that he was comically lacking just a few months early when he left Ishual and nearly died of starvation in a woodland full of critters.

However, I do agree that he probably figured out some reasonable way of finding water. The lay of the land, small vegatation indicating accessible underground aquifers, or some other subtle clue that tipped him off that the others simply were not aware of.
One of the other conditions of possibility.