The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]

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MSJ

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« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2016, 12:50:29 pm »
The head of a Skin-Spy that he kept after he was chased by them through Caraskand.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2016, 01:15:50 pm »
The head of a Skin-Spy that he kept after he was chased by them through Caraskand.

Ah, ok, makes sense.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2016, 02:38:42 pm »
I don't know if it's been suggested before - hell, it might have been Locke's initial insinuation from his post further up this page, but the idea that the Dunyain are all grown from Celmomas' seed would solve the problem of the Dunyain women.
Doesnt solve the problem of women. It solves the need for males to procreate, but you still need nearly all the important parts - the egg (which includes all the organells within the cell, functionally, everything important), and a vessel to grow the cells in. Unless they have some inchoroi growth chambers, I assume they need women for at least the second thing, and while its possible to harvest and store eggs today it seems unlikely to me that this is the mechanism they are using to make little celmomas clones.

And again, making babies from the sperm of a single father makes all subsequent generations siblings, not clones.
Even if they had harvested eggs and used the same mother's eggs and the same father's sperm... yeah still siblings.

Getting genetic clones is a much more in-depth process than freezing some sperm and eggs. Check out a wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning for some basics.

They would need a good understanding of the Tekne to do this, given the assumption that the Dunyain are not all Cisharurim and any magic  they do would make all of them marked, including the babies they made via magics.

Growing them from a stock is a viable theory, but calling them clones is just wrong, as far as I can tell.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 02:43:09 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2016, 03:03:45 pm »
Yeah, I am not buying that the Dunyain were up to cloning.  No, I think it is far more likely that they were engaging in eugenics, the method of which is unfortunately unknown.  It seems doubtful that Kellhus being a prodigy was an accident, but was probably the culmination of the whole project.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2016, 04:19:15 pm »
I'd be very, very suprised if there isn't Nonman woman involved with the Dunyain. Why? It goes back to the bones and Maithenet's comment on how weak Inrilaitis bones were.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2016, 04:41:42 pm »
I'd be very, very suprised if there isn't Nonman woman involved with the Dunyain. Why? It goes back to the bones and Maithenet's comment on how weak Inrilaitis bones were.

No to dispute your point, because it's as likely as it is unlikely, however there is also the fact that we kind of know that the Anisurimbor line has at least some Nonman blood in it, even before the Dunyain project.

Chances are good that the eugenics project would bring the Nonman traits out further, if nothing else.  In this way, they could transcend human capabilities. 
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2016, 04:47:34 pm »
Yea, there is multiple comments throughout the books describing Kellhus as alien, and I always took that to mean it's his Nonman traits that throw them off.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2016, 05:08:28 pm »
Yea, there is multiple comments throughout the books describing Kellhus as alien, and I always took that to mean it's his Nonman traits that throw them off.

Yes, not to mention:

Quote
The Kūniüric period proper did not begin until 1408, when Anasūrimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I, exploiting the confusion surrounding the collapse of the Scintya Empire, seized the Ur-Throne in Trysė, declaring himself the first High King of Kūniüri. Over the course of his long life (he lived to the age of 178, the reputed result of the Nonman blood in his veins)

From the Glossary.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2016, 06:09:55 pm »
And of course, that removed entry we've got laying around, directly tying the anasurimbor line to a nonman paternal line.

Quote
source- http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=464.msg2350#msg2350
Sample Timeline exerpt

820 - The Rape of Omindalea. Jiricet, a Nonman
Siqū to the God-King Nincarū-Telesser II
(787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first
daughter of Sanna-Neorjė (772-858) of the
house of Anasūrimbor in 824, and then flees
to Ishterebinth. When Nil’giccas refuses to
return Jiricet to Ūmerau, Nicarū-Telesser II
expels all Nonmen from the Ūmeri Empire.
Omindalea conceives by the union and dies
bearing Anasūrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-
1032), called ‘Twoheart.’ After a house-slave
conceives by him, Sanna-Jephera is adopted
by Sanna-Neorjė as his heir.
- The cuneiform script and the syllabaries of
the Nonmen are outlawed and replaced with a
consonantal alphabet, c.835.

The Rape marks the end of the Nonman Tutelage, though the relations between the two races
would have their mecurial ups and downs until the First Apocalypse. The old Siqu caste, as
well as that of the Quya, have transformed considerably over the years. But then that's a
story for some other day.

The quote is a bit jumbled with information but from what I can figure:

Anasurimbor Omindalea is raped by the nonman Siqu. She dies bearing Anasūrimbor Sanna-Jephera. Sanna-Jephera, after having a child to a house slave, is adopted as an heir, presumably keeping the Anasurimbor surname.

From that we know, assuming this isn't reneged, that a human female can conceive a child with a full nonman father, and this child can itself have subsequent children with other full human mates.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 06:21:58 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2016, 06:40:27 pm »
Yeah, that too.  Presumably, Sanna-Jephera is the progenitor of the line that Nanor-Ukkerja hails from eventually (and presumably Celmomas).
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Azuredarkness

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« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2016, 01:35:50 pm »
Well, I doubt she died bearing him, as the rape is dated to 820, and she lived till 825.

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« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2016, 02:05:01 pm »
Well, I doubt she died bearing him, as the rape is dated to 820, and she lived till 825.

Good point, the bearing of the half-breeds isn't necessarily deadly to the mother (at least not immediately).

By the way, good first post and welcome to the show.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2016, 02:45:57 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Azuredarkness.
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2016, 03:16:38 pm »
Well, I doubt she died bearing him, as the rape is dated to 820, and she lived till 825.

Unless... If we take the dates and info at face value, Nonman/human gestational periods are absurdly long.  If Dunyain gestation is longer than 'normal,' it could be an effect of their Nonman blood.  Five years is full-on on crazy-talk, but...  it wouldn't be the weirdest thing about Scott's world.
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« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2016, 12:47:28 am »
Well, I doubt she died bearing him, as the rape is dated to 820, and she lived till 825.

hi Azuredarkness!  welcome!  nice catch!