The Slog TTT - Final March: Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]

  • 57 Replies
  • 10975 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1936
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« on: February 15, 2016, 12:28:26 pm »
On to Chapter 4 this morning:

It begins with the skin-spy Istriya killing Xerius, not much new learned there.

The next part is curious, it's an awfully long section that is seemingly just to tell us that Maithanet traveled.  I can't help but feel there must be something I am missing here, but I have never been able to find it.

Quote
Whenever Achamian asked him why he continued to march on Shimeh when the Fanim were no more than a distraction, he always said, “If I’m to succeed my brother, I must reclaim his house.”

Curious that Kellhus refers to Moe as his "brother" and I think this is in part to keep Akka from knowing his true intentions.  There is also the possibiliy that Kellhus really does regard Moe more as a brother than a father, considering that, in reality, he was raised by the Pragma not his father (or, presumably, his mother).

Chapter 5 tomorrow though.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 02:05:43 pm by H »
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 1715
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2016, 01:29:53 pm »
H., I believe Kellhus is referring to Inri Sejenus there.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1936
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2016, 01:36:45 pm »
H., I believe Kellhus is referring to Inri Sejenus there.

Ah, yeah, that makes more sense.  And yet, a deeper implication too, because we know why he is really going to Shimeh?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 05:10:07 pm by H »
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Bolivar

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • The Articulate Guy
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2016, 07:54:45 pm »
Achamian notes two dreams in particular manifest while teaching Kellhus, and notes that he can almost see the pattern of their dreams:

Quote
Strangely enough, the Dreams themselves had become more bearable. Tywanrae and Dagliash continued to predominate, though as always he couldn’t fathom why they should follow this or any other rhythm of events. They were like swallows, swooping and circling in aimless patterns, sketching something almost, yet never quite, a language.

We touched on Daliash in the last thread, the battle at Tywanrae fords was a huge defeat in the First Apocalypse, due to Akssersia relying only on Chorae alone to combat the Consult's sorcerers. In the first book, Simas analogizes this battle to what would happen if Maithanet called a Holy War against the Fanim, as they were unaware of the object of the Holy War and the Scarlet Spires' involvement at that point. If the dreams are warnings, it might suggest there will be no sorcerers who can match Kellhus, repeating what happened at Tywanrae.

This is a quote I like in general but also was one of the passages that led to my Inchoroi Crash Space theory which I posted in the inverse fire thread:

Quote
Nothing, Achamian had long ago decided, was quite so dangerous as boredom in the absence of scruples.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1936
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2016, 12:24:03 pm »
Achamian notes two dreams in particular manifest while teaching Kellhus, and notes that he can almost see the pattern of their dreams:

Quote
Strangely enough, the Dreams themselves had become more bearable. Tywanrae and Dagliash continued to predominate, though as always he couldn’t fathom why they should follow this or any other rhythm of events. They were like swallows, swooping and circling in aimless patterns, sketching something almost, yet never quite, a language.

We touched on Daliash in the last thread, the battle at Tywanrae fords was a huge defeat in the First Apocalypse, due to Akssersia relying only on Chorae alone to combat the Consult's sorcerers. In the first book, Simas analogizes this battle to what would happen if Maithanet called a Holy War against the Fanim, as they were unaware of the object of the Holy War and the Scarlet Spires' involvement at that point. If the dreams are warnings, it might suggest there will be no sorcerers who can match Kellhus, repeating what happened at Tywanrae.

This is a quote I like in general but also was one of the passages that led to my Inchoroi Crash Space theory which I posted in the inverse fire thread:

Quote
Nothing, Achamian had long ago decided, was quite so dangerous as boredom in the absence of scruples.

Here's something that just occurred to me about the dreams of Dagliash.  Akka's situation could bee seen as an inversion of Seswatha's at Dagliash.

So, where Seswatha is captured, Akka goes freely.  Where Seswatha is tortured, Akka is instead compelled.  All with (essentially) the same aim, acquiring the weapon needed to defeat the No-God (Consult), which was once the Heron Spear, but is now the Gnosis.

Alright, that might be a stretch, but just came to me as I finished chapter 5.

The meeting between Cnaiür and the synthese is particularly important.  I think that Aurang does actually come to realize that they have been played with this Holy War at this point.

As for Crash Space Incoroi, the transhuman aspect of the series, both Inchoroi and Nonmen, was something I had brought up before (although I am not sure if someone else did before that too).  I think that the allegory is pretty real in the series, the danger of attempting to master one's nature and the law of unintended consequences.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2016, 04:25:11 pm »
Small tidbits from Chapter 4:

Quote
As his mother would say, every man was a spy in the end, an agent of contrary interests.  Every face was made of fingers...
Like Skeaos.
You'd think that someone as paranoid as Xerius would realize that this line of thinking was clearly foreshadowing his demise. :-)

Quote
And the worst agitators, it was said, were brought before the Consort, never to be seen again.
Kellhus playing the long game?  Seems he's already setting Esmi as a villain, what the poet in TJE artfully mocks as "...the fist in our breast, the beating heart." 


Quote
There were the refugees along the Herotic Way -- the very road to Shimeh! -- who were ridden down for spot by Lord Soter and his Kishyati Knights.

This must be Lord Kosoter AKA Ironsoul, right?


« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 04:51:41 pm by profgrape »

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 782
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2016, 05:57:32 pm »
Nah Sotor is with the great ordeal, he is mentioned in the scene where they decide what to do when chorae take out a few schoolmen.

Scene in WLW.


H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1936
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2016, 06:10:20 pm »
Also, Kosoter isn't a Lord though, right?  At least, as far as we know.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2016, 08:05:27 pm »
Ironsoul is referred to as "Lord Kosoter" several times in TJE.  But as themerchant wrote, Lord Soter is mentioned in WLW:

Quote
"...the Xiangol-eyed Jekki under Prince Nurbanu Ze, the adopted son of Lord Soter, and the first of his people to be called kjineta, or caste-noble; and the white-painted Ainoni under cold-hearted King-Regent Nurbanu Soter, Veteren of the First Holy War, renowned for his pious cruelty through the Unification Wars."

It's not inconceivable that they're related.  But definitely different dudes.

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 782
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2016, 01:56:11 am »
He speaks as well, asking how many pitched battles the Ordeal can withstand if the schoolmen withdraw from the culling due to chorae strikes. In fact he might be arguing with Ioykus, two Holy Veterans, then Kellhus says they will go out in pairs.

I might be remembering wrongly but i think it is those two.

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2016, 03:53:17 am »
Did his argument with Ioykus go something like this?

Ioykus: You crazy asshole, you're going to get my schoolmen killed!

Lord Soter: You think I'm crazy, you should meet my brother -- he skullfucks "crazy" every morning and then eats it for breakfast.

I kid, I kid, just really want to find a reference to the Captain PoN.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1936
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2016, 12:05:58 pm »
Chapter 6:

Quote
“There’s beauty—so much beauty—in what we see,” he said with mock eloquence. “But there’s truth in what we smell.”

While Zin says this as a joke, it has an air of truth about it, considering how we know blindness to be important to the Psukhe.

Quote
With a shrug, Achamian gazed at the weapon, found himself captivated by the multiple ghosts that formed about the spinning blade’s axis. He had the sense of watching silver through dancing water, then …

So, I wonder if Kellhus really spoke to Seswatha?  Or, was it simply a trick to get Akka to be more submissive in the face of Seswatha?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 1715
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2016, 12:16:00 pm »

Quote
So, I wonder if Kellhus really spoke to Seswatha?  Or, was it simply a trick to get Akka to be more submissive in the face of Seswatha?

You know, I've noticed that so far we've haven't had any POV's from Kellhus and I find myself wanting to believe everything he says and that indeed he has come around to the cause of good. Or, how should I put it? That he doesn't have other plans for the Holy War, that everything he says is sincere. You have to continually remind yourself.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1936
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2016, 12:42:14 pm »

Quote
So, I wonder if Kellhus really spoke to Seswatha?  Or, was it simply a trick to get Akka to be more submissive in the face of Seswatha?

You know, I've noticed that so far we've haven't had any POV's from Kellhus and I find myself wanting to believe everything he says and that indeed he has come around to the cause of good. Or, how should I put it? That he doesn't have other plans for the Holy War, that everything he says is sincere. You have to continually remind yourself.

Yeah, I find myself having to "snap back" after the fact.  Like, reading Kellhus' words basically leads you right where he wants you, it's only after that I say, wait a minute, I know there must be something else going on...

Relevant quote from Scott:

Quote
We humans tend to be a credulous of everything save our credulity -- something I forgot while writing the first draft of The Warrior-Prophet. Originally, my idea was to slowly 'externalize' Kellhus, to move away from his POV and show more and more of his manipulation from the outside. I'd have a wicked gleam in my eye as I wrote, thinking 'What a sneaky bastard!' But my readers kept coming back to me with things like, 'I'm so relieved Kellhus is coming around!' It turned out that Kellhus was duping them as thoroughly as he was duping the characters! They knew he wasn't trustworthy, just as we all know commercials aren't trustworthy, and yet the instinct to think 'Ah, it's OK,' is just so strong (which is why advertisers continue using the tactics they do).

This was perhaps the second greatest difficulty I had writing Kellhus: depicting him in such a way that my readers would always have a sense of the distance between his claims and his intentions. I'm still not happy with the way I resolved this problem.

I've said before, that even since my first read of TWP, I felt like there was something up with the "Kellhus-as-the-good-guy" idea.  The fact that the Consult so so clearly "not good" certainly leads us to side with Kellhus, since we can say, "well, he's not as bad as them."  In the end though, neither of them is "good" which always leads me to my (mostly joking) idea that the No-God is the real hero.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2016, 05:43:53 pm »
I've said before, that even since my first read of TWP, I felt like there was something up with the "Kellhus-as-the-good-guy" idea.  The fact that the Consult so so clearly "not good" certainly leads us to side with Kellhus, since we can say, "well, he's not as bad as them."  In the end though, neither of them is "good" which always leads me to my (mostly joking) idea that the No-God is the real hero.
For me, it came down to the way we tend to regard qualities like "heroic" and "good" as innate -- free of cognition.  Like Colbert's "truthiness", they come from the gut.  And for whatever reason, this excuses the question of motivation; "good" people are that way because they're "good". 

In Kellhus' case, however, we know that these qualities are the result of calculation.  Which totally calls his motivation into question; every "bad" thing he does seems extra-wicked and every "good" thing is sinister, suspect. 

Like H says, we root for him despite all this because he can't possibly be worse than the Consult, right?