The Slog TTT - Final March: Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]

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MSJ

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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2016, 06:32:38 pm »
Well, I feel that after his conversation with Moe (which I won't get into) all bets are off. I honestly believe from that point that Kellhus is for the good of humanity. We don't have anymore POV'S so we are left to wonder though. But, who knows? Is he still manipulating TGO for his own personal goals? To reach the Absolute? Has he realized that the Consult has it right? To me, I think he is sincerely working to defeat the Consult and maybe obtain the Absolute also.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2016, 06:52:26 pm »
I think it is plausible to think that perhaps Kellhus is actually working to defeat the Consult, but at the same time, achieve their same goal (minus all the murder).

I feel there is a good chance that what Kellhus wants is the sealing off of the world from the Outside, this way everything is calculable, everything is determinable and so being truly self-moving is possible.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2016, 07:12:07 pm »
I think it is plausible to think that perhaps Kellhus is actually working to defeat the Consult, but at the same time, achieve their same goal (minus all the murder).

I feel there is a good chance that what Kellhus wants is the sealing off of the world from the Outside, this way everything is calculable, everything is determinable and so being truly self-moving is possible.

Essentially, make a meaningful world, meaningless. ;)

ETA: it then makes plenty of sense as to why Kellhus would want the Tekne.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 07:23:56 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Bolivar

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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2016, 08:05:51 pm »
So, I wonder if Kellhus really spoke to Seswatha?  Or, was it simply a trick to get Akka to be more submissive in the face of Seswatha?

I take it as he hypnotized Achamian to bring out his subconscious. I don't think he spoke with Seswatha in a literal sense but perhaps as Achamian's alter ego, his own  personification of Seswatha's memories.

MSJ

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« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2016, 08:11:55 pm »
A couple quotes that I found interesting.

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That you are being played. That you flounder in nets of your own making. The circumstances you struggle to master, Bird, have long ago mastered you. Of course you think otherwise. Like men, power stands high among your native desires. But you are a tool, as much as any Man of the Tusk.

Cnaüir is a very smart man, even though he is bonkers he has gained so much insight from his time with the Dunyain. I was reading a thread about the most reliable POV, and while Cnaüir might be crazy, his insight about the world around him seems to strike true so very often to me.

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Xinemus turned from Proyas to Achamian, as though from a lesser to a greater enemy. “He cannot heal, Akka. The Warrior-Prophet … He cannot heal.

This is the end of Xin's outburst with Proyas, Akka and Esme. Xin comments before this about how all he smells about him is shit. And being blinded has led him to the realization that Kellhus is a fraud. Only problem.....everyone thinks him mad.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

geoffrobro

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« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2016, 09:44:33 pm »
I think it is plausible to think that perhaps Kellhus is actually working to defeat the Consult, but at the same time, achieve their same goal (minus all the murder).

I feel there is a good chance that what Kellhus wants is the sealing off of the world from the Outside, this way everything is calculable, everything is determinable and so being truly self-moving is possible.

Essentially, make a meaningful world, meaningless. ;)

ETA: it then makes plenty of sense as to why Kellhus would want the Tekne.

Kellhus did a interesting thing with the Mandate, he tricked Akka to not telling them of his presences until he had enough to bargin with them as equals. Kellhus may do the same thing with the Consult. He could show up at Golgotterath with TGO and a ultimatum, "Ill drive the No-God and show you how its done."
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

MSJ

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« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2016, 10:27:24 pm »
Geoffrobro, at this point there is nothing I won't rule out. And, that is a nice comparison that I could see happening.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Bolivar

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« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2016, 04:39:04 pm »
I'm also expecting Kellhus to bargain with the Consult. I imagine he's probably rediscovered some of the lost principles of the Tekne in the last 20 years.

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Xinemus turned from Proyas to Achamian, as though from a lesser to a greater enemy. “He cannot heal, Akka. The Warrior-Prophet … He cannot heal.

This is the end of Xin's outburst with Proyas, Akka and Esme. Xin comments before this about how all he smells about him is shit. And being blinded has led him to the realization that Kellhus is a fraud. Only problem.....everyone thinks him mad.

Very succinct way to put it, about smell and truth and the reality that it's all a lie at that point.

I kept wondering why Kellhus wouldn't visit Xin or try to say something to help his outlook. The truth is, Kellhus had no use for Xinemus anymore.

MSJ

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« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2016, 06:47:00 pm »
Quote
I kept wondering why Kellhus wouldn't visit Xin or try to say something to help his outlook. The truth is, Kellhus had no use for Xinemus anymore.

Or.....Kellhus knew that Xin would "see" through his lies. Sniff him out so to say.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2016, 12:05:20 pm »
Quote
I kept wondering why Kellhus wouldn't visit Xin or try to say something to help his outlook. The truth is, Kellhus had no use for Xinemus anymore.

Or.....Kellhus knew that Xin would "see" through his lies. Sniff him out so to say.

It's also that the blindness means a whole new way of "seeing" which means a change of perception.

I think also the seeing versus smelling is sort of an analogy of appearances versus reality.  Kellhus appears to be a savior, but the reality is far from that.

Also, I had menat to include this quote in my post above but I had missed it:

Quote
The “Third Phrase” was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to Men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su’juroit, the great Cûnuroi Witch-King. But for some reason, Achamian found himself loath to relate the tale. “No,” he lied. “It’s impossible.”

So, the meta-Gnosis is not unprecedented, which is interesting, I wonder if the current Quya recall this.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2016, 02:57:16 pm »
During Conphas' ruminations on godhood in chapter 5, he concludes that "[the] famed Ikurei Conphas was not quite human."  If not human, and not god, however, then what?

There are really only a handful characters in PoN who seem even partially immune to Kellhus' ability to "make us love": Moenghus, Cnauir and Conphas.  And these are, not coincidentally, the folks that Kellhus sees as his greatest threats.

The first two have inside information.  One is a Dunyain himself.  And the other has the intellectual heft to evaluate Kellhus' actions knowing that everything he does is intentional, with purpose. 

Conphas, at first blush, is your typical vainglorious villain who from his initial introduction is set up for ignominious defeat.   But as the books progress, we realize that he’s not nearly as motivated by human passions as, for example, his uncle.  The more we learn about Conphas, the more he resembles the sort of quasi-sociopathic “Prime Mover” that we see in Ayn Rand’s novels: he believes his own bullshit to a degree that could only be regarded as pathological. 

Awfully Dunyaini, isn’t it?   Which is where his “…not quite human” comment comes in.

We’re lead to believe that Dunyain-hood is part nature, part nurture.  So if Conphas seems part-Dunyain, how did it happen?

Conphas was primarily nurtured by Istriya, and to a lesser degree, Martemas -- maybe even Skauras?  These together lead to how he’s initially portrayed: a privileged wunderkind who is largely the product of having the best training money can buy.  So I think we can rule out his Dunyain-ness coming from nurture.

This leaves nature; like Gaga, he was just “born this way.”  He is Dunyain by-nature (resisting a “down wit OPP joke” here*), hence “not quite human”.

Now, it’s not inconceivable that among the millions of births since the First Apocalypse, there are a few that just happen to possess the genetic characteristics that might approach the Dunyain ideal.  They selected to increase the probability of getting the right mix.  But that doesn’t mean it couldn’t just happen. 

The other possibility, is that Conphas is one of Moenghus’ secret other kids.  And while this theory is a nice fit in some ways, it has a number of significant issues that have been discussed in detail on the board.  As a result, I lean toward the former option, that he won the genetic Powerball.

Either way, I do think that there’s evidence supporting the notion that Conphas is at least partially Dunyain, which explains his immunity to Kellhus’ charms and why Kellhus sees him as the greatest threat to his post-Shimeh plans. 

Part Dunyain, but sadly, mostly douchebag.  Oh what could have been, Conphas?

* Other People’s Probabilities?

profgrape

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« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2016, 08:01:44 pm »
A rare moment of honest reflection from Cnaiur:
Quote
…Events from the previous evening slurred through his soul.  Conphas baiting him at the gates.  Conphas arguing the terms of his internment.  Conphas restrained by his Generals.  His cuirass glaring white in the sunlight.  His long-lashed eyes.
I’m…
The Scylvendi stirred in sudden remembrance, rolled his head about his massive shoulders.
I’m Cnaiur… Breaker-of-horses-and-men.
He laughed, drowsed some more, dreamed…
He catches himself as his remembrance veers toward a sexual fantasy, reminds himself of his manliness, and then laughs at how ridiculous it all is.  Awesome stuff.

profgrape

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« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2016, 06:15:57 pm »
More tidbits from Chapter 5...

1. As Cnaiur ponders Kellhus' motivation for having Conphas assassinated, he realizes that Kellhus is now looking beyond Shimeh, has grasped something greater (TTT):

Quote
And Cnaiur realized ... There was no way around it: the Dunyain was looking beyond the Holy War -- past Shimeh.  And to see past Shimeh was to see past Moenghus

This is also the point where Cnaiur realizes that he's ceased to be useful to Kellhus and as a result, can no longer rely on him to achieve his ultimate goal of finding Moenghus.

2. Cnaiur counselling Aur/ang/ax on how to outwit Kellhus:

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"You must abandon your old ways, Bird.  You must strike across trackless ground.  You must surrender brute circumstance to him, because in this you cannot hope to match him.  Instead, you must watch.  Wait.  You must become a student of opportunity."

Unfortunately, the Synthese doesn't grasp Kellhus' long-term objectives and decides not to take Cnaiur's advice.  More evidence of the Consult seeming like the "Keystone Sorcerers" when compared to Kellhus,

(click to show/hide)

Camlost

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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2016, 09:25:50 pm »
Quote
Kellhus did a interesting thing with the Mandate, he tricked Akka to not telling them of his presences until he had enough to bargin with them as equals. Kellhus may do the same thing with the Consult. He could show up at Golgotterath with TGO and a ultimatum, "Ill drive the No-God and show you how its done."

Ever since reading TJE and learning that the final book in TAE series would be called The Unholy Consult, I've been convinced that Bakker is just being clever and using a name we're all familiar with to mask a secondary meaning for the title; namely that Kellhus has crossed the span of the world to consult with the Consult on unholy things (ie, sorcery and damnation). As it has already been said, a world closed to the Outside is certainly a better environment in which to pursue the Absolute

nicodante

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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2016, 09:20:12 pm »
Why does Kellhus insist on learning a cant of calling first? Does he need to send dreams to someone immediately? I've not noticed an obvious candidate for any Kellhus-sent dreams since...


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