The Slog TTT - Final March: Chapters 7-9 [Spoilers]

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H

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« on: February 18, 2016, 11:38:00 am »
Chapter 7:

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“Sompas says lights were sighted on your private terrace,” Conphas remarked. His tone was offhand in the probing way of devious family members. “What was it?” he asked, glancing at the man. “Some four or five days ago?”

I presume these were lights from the Synthese?

Not much else in this chapter I found for analysis.  The whole episode with Conphas escaping and reinforcements arriving, I don't know that Kellhus would have actually predicted this, but I think he knew something was going to happen.  Setting Cnaiür and Conphas against each other and apart from the Holy War, I think Kellhus figured that one would destroy the other and so leave him with only one problem in the end.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 02:06:25 pm by H »
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2016, 12:51:58 pm »
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Certainly there were truces, the coming together of coincidental interests, but nothing else, nothing meaningful. Kellhus had taught him that. He cackled aloud when the revelation struck, and for a moment the world itself wobbled. A sense of power suffused him, so intense it seemed something other might snap from his frame, that throwing out his arms he could shear Joktha’s walls from their foundations, cast them to the horizon. No reason bound him. Nothing. No scruple, no instinct, no habit, no calculation, no hate … He stood beyond origin or outcome. He stood nowhere.

I'd have to say this is the moment in which Gilgoal actually inhabited Cnaüir. Joktha is one of my favorite battle scenes in the books, for this reason alone.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2016, 05:25:36 pm »
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One of her brothers had sat to his right—only it wasn’t one of her brothers. It was him … the serpent whose coils ever tightened about his heart: Moënghus, the murderer, wearing the armour and insignia of a Nansur infantry captain. Or was he Kellhus? “You …” The Dûnyain nodded, and the air became yaksh dank—yaksh sour. “What am I?”“I …” What kind of madness? What kind of devilry? “Tell me,” Moënghus said.

I was a little confused here. The Skin-Spy is putting on Kellhus's face and Cnaüir just thinks it's Moe, right?

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Men were like this, Cnaiür realized, binding their manifold roots then branching in a thousand different directions, twining into the greater canopy of other men. But these things—these skin-spies—were something altogether different, though they could mimic men well enough. They did not bleed into their surroundings as men did. They struck through circumstances, rather than reaching out to claim them. They were spears concealed in the thickets of human activity. Thorns … Tusks.

Found this very interesting and a little gem from Mr. Bakker. Cnaüir observing the skin-spies and how they are compared to men. A lie made flesh essentially. And, he compares them to tusks. And the Tusk is another lie the Inchoroi has put in the Three-Seas to further their purpose. Great little nugget of you ask me.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2016, 12:25:26 pm »
MSJ, I'll get back to your points when I finish chapter 9.

For now, Chapter 8:

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Hated or adored, Seswatha was the pin in the navigator’s bowl, the true hero of The Sagas, though not one cycle or chronicle acknowledged him as such.

I have always found this interesting.  We are constantly poised between the knowledge that there is a shroud of lies around Seswatha the legend and Seswatha the actual historical figure.  The Dreams seem to alternatively support and refute some of it.  In other words, the Dreams seem to be yet another layer of obfuscation to the truth of Seswatha.  I still feel like something isn't quite right about it all, each is a lie, yet a different lie.  To go back to something that came up a few other times in our Slog here, is viramsata, the Saga as propaganda and  the Dreams as the same. 

Not that the Dreams are necessarily false, but that they are purposely incomplete.  We kind of know this from the way Akka talks about them changing.  Although, it is a whole can of worms asking if the Dreams are becoming more truthful or more misleading.  I guess that depends on what we think the Dreams are doing in changing.  Are they changing as revelation to the truth?  Or are they changing as a realignment of goals?

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Golgotterath would not be pleased with this new disposition of pieces. But the rules had changed …

It's interesting how he refers to Golgotterath in this way.  It seems to imply a multiplicity of agents there.  We know there aren't many Inchoroi left, but besides Shae, I wonder how many others are really left.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

H

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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2016, 05:22:25 pm »
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One of her brothers had sat to his right—only it wasn’t one of her brothers. It was him … the serpent whose coils ever tightened about his heart: Moënghus, the murderer, wearing the armour and insignia of a Nansur infantry captain. Or was he Kellhus? “You …” The Dûnyain nodded, and the air became yaksh dank—yaksh sour. “What am I?”“I …” What kind of madness? What kind of devilry? “Tell me,” Moënghus said.

I was a little confused here. The Skin-Spy is putting on Kellhus's face and Cnaüir just thinks it's Moe, right?

That certainly is the way it seems.

Quote
Men were like this, Cnaiür realized, binding their manifold roots then branching in a thousand different directions, twining into the greater canopy of other men. But these things—these skin-spies—were something altogether different, though they could mimic men well enough. They did not bleed into their surroundings as men did. They struck through circumstances, rather than reaching out to claim them. They were spears concealed in the thickets of human activity. Thorns … Tusks.

Found this very interesting and a little gem from Mr. Bakker. Cnaüir observing the skin-spies and how they are compared to men. A lie made flesh essentially. And, he compares them to tusks. And the Tusk is another lie the Inchoroi has put in the Three-Seas to further their purpose. Great little nugget of you ask me.

Good catch.  It certainly seems deliberate.  Don't the Scylvendi regard the Tusk as a lie?  I'm going to have dig more on that.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

geoffrobro

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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2016, 08:01:00 pm »

Quote
Men were like this, Cnaiür realized, binding their manifold roots then branching in a thousand different directions, twining into the greater canopy of other men. But these things—these skin-spies—were something altogether different, though they could mimic men well enough. They did not bleed into their surroundings as men did. They struck through circumstances, rather than reaching out to claim them. They were spears concealed in the thickets of human activity. Thorns … Tusks.

Found this very interesting and a little gem from Mr. Bakker. Cnaüir observing the skin-spies and how they are compared to men. A lie made flesh essentially. And, he compares them to tusks. And the Tusk is another lie the Inchoroi has put in the Three-Seas to further their purpose. Great little nugget of you ask me.
This is very close to the lesson Kellhus learns from Pragma about trees.
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

geoffrobro

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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2016, 12:50:20 pm »
Quote
Certainly there were truces, the coming together of coincidental interests, but nothing else, nothing meaningful. Kellhus had taught him that. He cackled aloud when the revelation struck, and for a moment the world itself wobbled. A sense of power suffused him, so intense it seemed something other might snap from his frame, that throwing out his arms he could shear Joktha’s walls from their foundations, cast them to the horizon. No reason bound him. Nothing. No scruple, no instinct, no habit, no calculation, no hate … He stood beyond origin or outcome. He stood nowhere.

I'd have to say this is the moment in which Gilgoal actually inhabited Cnaüir. Joktha is one of my favorite battle scenes in the books, for this reason alone.

This is a really interesting part because we get Cnaiirs inside POV of feeling Gilgoal and a outside view. Conphas says the same when he captures Cnaiir in Chapter 9:

Quote
Conphas had witnessed it, as much as any of the Columnaries who'd quailed before him in Jokta. In the firelight the barbarian's eyes had been coals set in his skull. And the blood had painted him the colour of his true skin. Theswatting arms, the roaring voices, the chest-pounding declarations. They had all seen the God. They had all seen dread Gilgaol rearing about him. a great shadow...
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

geoffrobro

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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2016, 01:02:12 pm »
In chapter 8 when Esmi is reading The Sagas, In The Kelmariad, which is a history of Anaurimbor Celmomas. Celmomomas had a stillborn twin named Huormomas, the poet who wrote The Kelmariad insisted Huormomas ever stalked his brother's side, chilling his hear even as he quickened his intellect.
 
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Grim kinsman,frosting the breath of his every counsel
Dark reflection! Even the knight-cheiftains bundle their cloaks
When they catch your glint in their Lord's eye.
[/i]
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2016, 01:13:33 pm »
In chapter 8 when Esmi is reading The Sagas, In The Kelmariad, which is a history of Anaurimbor Celmomas. Celmomomas had a stillborn twin named Huormomas, the poet who wrote The Kelmariad insisted Huormomas ever stalked his brother's side, chilling his hear even as he quickened his intellect.
 
Quote
Grim kinsman,frosting the breath of his every counsel
Dark reflection! Even the knight-cheiftains bundle their cloaks
When they catch your glint in their Lord's eye.

I believe there was a discussion of this in the tread dealing with Kelmomas, who also had a dead twin, given the relation of their names, it certainly seems like a deliberate parallel.

Sorry for the hiatus, next section of the Slog coming tomorrow.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2016, 04:09:47 pm »
Ah, finally, a textual reference of The Rape of Omindalea - proof that it exists in cannon but the follow up reference/explanation in the glossary was simply removed.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2016, 04:15:49 pm »
Ah, finally, a textual reference of The Rape of Omindalea - proof that it exists in cannon but the follow up reference/explanation in the glossary was simply removed.

Yeah, the event itself is certainly cannon.  The explanation though isn't...yet.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2016, 05:25:10 pm »
Moe and Kellhus get mixed up by cnaiur, skin spies appearing with their faces is probably to get more info out of Cnaiur. I suspect the consult have met/made many an insane human.

Kellhus mixes up a Cish for his father until the dude is right in front of him and realises he is too young.

I suspect Moe and Kellhus might look the same like nonmen or genetic twins.

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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2016, 05:30:20 pm »
Moe and Kellhus get mixed up by cnaiur, skin spies appearing with their faces is probably to get more info out of Cnaiur. I suspect the consult have met/made many an insane human.

Kellhus mixes up a Cish for his father until the dude is right in front of him and realises he is too young.

I suspect Moe and Kellhus might look the same like nonmen or genetic twins.

The eugenics, if it is really working toward the end that I think it was (isolate and hone the Nonman blood in them) would certainly seem to lead us to them looking alike too.

On skin-spies, I am still harboring the idea that some events in "ancient" history were probably spurred by acts of skin-spies who took on personas in order to harbor divides among Men.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2016, 11:51:58 pm »
Also, I love the end of this book. Gets me every time. So awesome. So much sorrow.
One of the other conditions of possibility.