The Slog TTT - Final March: Chapters 10-12 [Spoilers]

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« on: February 22, 2016, 06:27:45 pm »
Onward, chapter 10:

Quote
Kellhus grinned. “They can’t see that gold is only relevant insofar as it plays a role within our expectations—insofar as we make it relevant …

Eh, this quote just struck me, as pointing out just how much Kellhus manipulates them all...

Quote
He blinked, frowning … Was that the Mark he sensed?
A sorcerous bird?

Hmm, I had forgotten that the Mandate didn't know of the synthese, just like they didn't know of the skin-spies.

Quote
The Warrior-Prophet turned to him, clutched his shoulder with a shining hand. “The Truth of Here is that it is Everywhere. And this, Akka, is what it means to be in love: to recognize the Here within the other, to see the world through another’s eyes. To be here together.”

This whole part, while it sounds as if Kellhus is making profound statements, laying bare the fundamental truth of being in Earwa, I still can't help but think that it's not really true, it just him whelming Akka.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 02:05:57 pm by H »
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 07:07:30 pm »
H, yea, it almost sounds like utter bullshit. I mean Kellhus is trying so hard to get the Gnosis, it just anything to run Akka"s ego/sore spots. Honestly it made me cringe reading it, wether true(sounds like it) or not. Now, that being said, it's only because it's my 3rd re-read. Before, I was nodding right along with him.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2016, 07:15:17 pm »
H, yea, it almost sounds like utter bullshit. I mean Kellhus is trying so hard to get the Gnosis, it just anything to run Akka"s ego/sore spots. Honestly it made me cringe reading it, wether true(sounds like it) or not. Now, that being said, it's only because it's my 3rd re-read. Before, I was nodding right along with him.

I think it's partly true.  But I also think it's a lot of words that sound profound, but in reality don't mean much of anything.  That's the best kind of lies, the ones that seem self-evidently true.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2016, 07:23:28 pm »
Chapter 11

Quote
But the plate had changed all too quickly. To realize that the Cishaurim were but a mask for a far more ancient foe. To come so very close, only to discover their sublime deceptions subverted by something deeper. Something new. The Dûnyain.
There was more to this than a son hunting for his father—far more. Their devious methods and disconcerting abilities aside, these Dûnyain were Anasûrimbor. Even without the Mandate prophecies, enmity was a fact of their accursed blood. Who was this Moënghus? And if his son could seize the armed might of the Three Seas in a single year, what had he accomplished in thirty? What awaited the Holy War in Shimeh.

When you get a clue from Bakker, it's a whale in a Gold fishes mouth! Look at those two paragraphs and how packed with meaning and hints. A. Far. More. Ancient. Foe. Can anyone say Seswatha? I know it's about an Anasurimbor on the surface, but I see Seswatha lurking in the shadow as always. To me, it's just one more hint that Seswatha had a hand in the Dunyain. Men? Men could not do what a Dunyain could or would need to do, to even come close to defeating the Consult. The next paragraph compares them to rutting dogs during the First Apocalypse(men).

A son chasing his father across the Three-Seas? No, Aurang says himself, "There is far more going on here." Friends, people of the slog, this is an Ancient foe! Ahhh, this is the diamond in the rough I've been looking for. Its all there.

ETA: also look at the last two sentences. How many times has this been brought up? And yet, so many think that Moe didn't have a plan at Kyudea, and he was just stabbed by his son and died in his lover's arms. Come now, ever are men deceived.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 07:42:59 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 12:41:20 pm »
Chapter 11

Quote
But the plate had changed all too quickly. To realize that the Cishaurim were but a mask for a far more ancient foe. To come so very close, only to discover their sublime deceptions subverted by something deeper. Something new. The Dûnyain.
There was more to this than a son hunting for his father—far more. Their devious methods and disconcerting abilities aside, these Dûnyain were Anasûrimbor. Even without the Mandate prophecies, enmity was a fact of their accursed blood. Who was this Moënghus? And if his son could seize the armed might of the Three Seas in a single year, what had he accomplished in thirty? What awaited the Holy War in Shimeh.

When you get a clue from Bakker, it's a whale in a Gold fishes mouth! Look at those two paragraphs and how packed with meaning and hints. A. Far. More. Ancient. Foe. Can anyone say Seswatha? I know it's about an Anasurimbor on the surface, but I see Seswatha lurking in the shadow as always. To me, it's just one more hint that Seswatha had a hand in the Dunyain. Men? Men could not do what a Dunyain could or would need to do, to even come close to defeating the Consult. The next paragraph compares them to rutting dogs during the First Apocalypse(men).

A son chasing his father across the Three-Seas? No, Aurang says himself, "There is far more going on here." Friends, people of the slog, this is an Ancient foe! Ahhh, this is the diamond in the rough I've been looking for. Its all there.

ETA: also look at the last two sentences. How many times has this been brought up? And yet, so many think that Moe didn't have a plan at Kyudea, and he was just stabbed by his son and died in his lover's arms. Come now, ever are men deceived.

Well, I think what Aurang draws at is that Dunyain are Anisurimbor, therefor connected to Celmomas and therefor connected to Seswatha.

Chapter 11:

Quote
What did the old fool whisper?

No doubt a message from Moe.  I think he probably also told him to kill him after, although why I don't know.

Quote
Ah, the raucous glory of that age! He had been young then, before the accretions of graft after graft had sapped his monumental frame.

I wonder if all Inchoroi were "born" large warriors?  It's only after the grafts that they dwindled in size and strength?

Quote
He had made fires of their cities, beacons that shone through the very void.

Does he speak of something meta-physical, or just fires so bright they could be seen from space?

Quote
It had spoken long with its captive brothers. It knew the numbers that would guard it, the elaborate codes that would be required to see it.

This quote confuses me.  This skin-spy has already been captured, so why does it speak of guarding itself?  It's been unmasked, so what does it allude to with being "seen" then?

Quote
“Walking between Wards is easy,” a voice hummed, “when their author practises other arcana.”

This one is also interesting.  I wonder what "other arcana" would mean?  Aporos?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

geoffrobro

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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2016, 07:40:57 pm »
(On my phone)
The skin spy is communcating on a sonar level. Tell fellow skin spies how many guards, their hours, and what is needed to visit him in captivity.

And the only other time we witness someone walk thru wards is when Cleric is sitting over Mimara while Akka is beside her sleep. It's seems like is a high level techqiue
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2016, 07:54:00 pm »
(On my phone)
The skin spy is communcating on a sonar level. Tell fellow skin spies how many guards, their hours, and what is needed to visit him in captivity.

And the only other time we witness someone walk thru wards is when Cleric is sitting over Mimara while Akka is beside her sleep. It's seems like is a high level techqiue

Ah, yeah, that makes a lot more sense.

As for walking through wards, perhaps it can only be done if one does not have any Wards up themselves?  This would explain why it isn't an amazing weapon, it's only good when they can't see you coming/you don't need to defend yourself.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

locke

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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2016, 04:51:34 am »
Chapter 11

Quote
But the plate had changed all too quickly. To realize that the Cishaurim were but a mask for a far more ancient foe. To come so very close, only to discover their sublime deceptions subverted by something deeper. Something new. The Dûnyain.
There was more to this than a son hunting for his father—far more. Their devious methods and disconcerting abilities aside, these Dûnyain were Anasûrimbor. Even without the Mandate prophecies, enmity was a fact of their accursed blood. Who was this Moënghus? And if his son could seize the armed might of the Three Seas in a single year, what had he accomplished in thirty? What awaited the Holy War in Shimeh.

When you get a clue from Bakker, it's a whale in a Gold fishes mouth! Look at those two paragraphs and how packed with meaning and hints. A. Far. More. Ancient. Foe. Can anyone say Seswatha? I know it's about an Anasurimbor on the surface, but I see Seswatha lurking in the shadow as always. To me, it's just one more hint that Seswatha had a hand in the Dunyain. Men? Men could not do what a Dunyain could or would need to do, to even come close to defeating the Consult. The next paragraph compares them to rutting dogs during the First Apocalypse(men).

A son chasing his father across the Three-Seas? No, Aurang says himself, "There is far more going on here." Friends, people of the slog, this is an Ancient foe! Ahhh, this is the diamond in the rough I've been looking for. Its all there.

ETA: also look at the last two sentences. How many times has this been brought up? And yet, so many think that Moe didn't have a plan at Kyudea, and he was just stabbed by his son and died in his lover's arms. Come now, ever are men deceived.
"and boom! goes the canon, watch the blood and the shit spray!"

"To realize that the Cishaurim were but a mask for a far more ancient foe."
The next thought is "something new. The dunyain."
There it is. Two separate thoughts. The cishaurim are a mask for something ancient and the dunyain are something new.
Boom!
Next he thinks specifically about what the dunyain are:
"these Dûnyain were Anasûrimbor enmity was a fact of their accursed blood."
So. Cishaurim are a mask for an ancient enemy, dunyain are something new. Dunyain are anasurimbor. Anasurimbor have cursed blood.  inchoroi have enmity for anasurimbor.
Possible Conclusion, Aurang has figured out who founded the dunyain and why (from the readers perspective the only candidates we are aware Titirga, celmomas, or seswatha). From discovering these facts of the dunyain he separately finds out that the cishaurim are a mask for an ancient foe.
So the order of the cishaurim are a conscious construction on the behalf of an unknown agency, possibly the dunyain possibly the agency behind the dunyain, for reasons as yet unknown.
Note the use of "ancient": the context leading into this passage is AURANG thinking about time and that he is older than the stone, so he is describing a foe as ancient while preceding that with thinking about time in very large orders of magnitude.
So what agency founded the cishaurim and why?
Meppa is x where x is a representative of said unknown agency.
***
I think close reading indicates that AURANG has clear separate thoughts about the newness of the dunyain and the ancientness of the enemy beneath the cishaurim mask. Perhaps AURANG is merely contradicting himself and merely saying that AURANG has discovered the dunyain beneath the cishaurim.  But I think this is not what the text is indicating.
Also note that this construction is an Inversion of what the reader knows. The reader knows that the cishaurim are a new construction within earwa with only centuries of continuity and the dunyain are an ancient order with thousands of years of continuity. But AURANG inverts this and describes the agency behind the cishaurim as ancient and the dunyain as a new construction.
Boom indeed.
Has an ancient enemy followed the inchoroi to earwa to continue their ancient war?
As madness says, shit we never saw coming, hmm?



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« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 07:10:29 am by locke »

MSJ

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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2016, 12:38:45 pm »
Boom! It's Seswatha! Your trying to hard to make me wrong, lol. Maybe you're right, who knows? Though it does align with earlier readings and thoughts that Seswatha is the one involved. And, I won't go over all that, there is a thread for it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2016, 01:04:25 pm »
Locke, it took me a minute to realize what you where getting at, and that you just wasn't busting my balls. I can see where you gathered that from the text. Though, i dont know that I can see a enemy following them from a different planet or something. Moe says that the God sleeps on Earwa. So, could the God be part of the entire Universe? And that is the foe that they he is referring too? Or, maybe it's the Solitary God and that would align with the text.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2016, 01:32:06 pm »
Before I jump in on what Aurang said, let get this this chapter out of the way.

Chapter 12:

Quote
And others they found impossible to identify, bones with singular shapes, some as small as earrings, others as long as a skiff′s mast. They gleamed like oiled bronze, and could not be broken, despite the legendary strength of Nau-Cayûti’s arms.

Wracu bones?

Quote
“Love is the Way … And yet these little demons you call Gods decree otherwise? Dole out their rewards in proportion to our suffering? No.” She paused before him, her slight form magnificent in the play of gloom and light. “I would save my soul.”

Aurang using the word love is always a dicey proposition.  What he means is very different than what we mean when we say it.

The thing is, Aurang seems to imply that he is not damned by a god.  So damnation isn't a divine dispensation, it is a natural fact?  Gods offer only redemption?

Quote
“Again,” she simpered, “I don’t believe you … You are your father’s heir, not his assassin.”

Aurang cutting right to the heart of things.  That's why I "like" him.  I think he is both right and wrong though.  Kellhus is Moe's heir, but that precludes being his assassin now.  At this point, Kellhus' Thousand Fold though fosters no competition, so Moe has to go.

I think close reading indicates that AURANG has clear separate thoughts about the newness of the dunyain and the ancientness of the enemy beneath the cishaurim mask. Perhaps AURANG is merely contradicting himself and merely saying that AURANG has discovered the dunyain beneath the cishaurim.  But I think this is not what the text is indicating.
Also note that this construction is an Inversion of what the reader knows. The reader knows that the cishaurim are a new construction within earwa with only centuries of continuity and the dunyain are an ancient order with thousands of years of continuity. But AURANG inverts this and describes the agency behind the cishaurim as ancient and the dunyain as a new construction.
Boom indeed.
Has an ancient enemy followed the inchoroi to earwa to continue their ancient war?
As madness says, shit we never saw coming, hmm?

That's a fair interpretation.  I love Aurang scenes for just this reason, he rarely pulls punches, even if they are sometimes riddles on their own.

What if he finally put together Titirga and the Psukhe?  Then he realizes that the Cishaurim are not using some new arcana, but a very ancient one?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2016, 01:54:52 pm »
So, that would make Seswatha founding the Dunyain and Titirga the Psukhe. I like it. It would make the False Sun seem all that more important also.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2016, 02:02:57 pm »
I didn't even finish Chapter 12 last night, but I did find this little piece of confirmation.

Quote
She awoke suddenly, if not completely, and through blinking eyes watched yet another man walk to the side of her bed … He was tall, dressed in a black cloak over a silvered brigandine. With relief she realized he was quite handsome. There was compensation of a different sort in— His shadow had hooked wings. She tumbled from the far side of the bed, shrank toward the far wall. “And to think,” he said, “that I thought twelve talents an outrage."

Black Cloak, silver brigandine, very handsome, it's the same description as in TDTCB. This time she sees his wings also, so it's just a glamour Aurang uses. Here's the thing though, it was his shadow that had hooked wings. So, because it his "soul" the shadow gives off the image of his true form. I think that is a neat trick by Bakker and wonder if it's not used somewhere else in the books as a clue to something or someone else. Anyhow, it confirms all the speculation we had way back at the beginning of The Slog.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2016, 02:14:05 pm »
So, that would make Seswatha founding the Dunyain and Titirga the Psukhe. I like it. It would make the False Sun seem all that more important also.

Well, Bakker did mark False Sun as having spoilers.  He didn't say spoilers for what though.

As for Titirga as the Solitary God, well, Shae did say that Titirga would not "suffer rivals" which would explain why he would be a solitary god.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2016, 02:56:21 pm »
And Titirga died at Viri, a Topoi if there ever was one. I wonder if Kyudea was a Topoi of a sort?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,