The Slog TTT - Final March: Chapters 13-15 [Spoilers]

  • 21 Replies
  • 3830 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1932
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« on: February 25, 2016, 12:31:24 pm »
Chapter 13:

Quote
Simas counselled immediate attack. “As far as we know,” he cried, “the Second Apocalypse has already begun! No matter who owns the deed to these galleys, we can only assume that the Consult commands them. We’ve always known they would attempt to destroy us in the opening days. And now, with the Harbinger, this so-called Warrior-Prophet … Think, my brothers. What would the Consult do? Wouldn’t they risk anything to prevent us from joining the Holy War? We must strike!”

Oh, Simas, of course you realize that they gig it up...

Quote
He could remember, perfectly, what it had been like those three years past, stepping from the shadow of Ishuäl’s Fallow Gate. Countless tracks had fanned out from his feet, leading to countless possible outcomes. But unlike a tree, he could war only in one direction. With every step he murdered alternatives, collapsed future after future, walking a line too thin to be marked on any map. For so long he had believed that line, that track, belonged to him, as though his every footfall had been a monstrous decision for which he alone could be called to account. Step after step, annihilating world after possible world, warring until only this moment survived …
But those futures, he now knew, had been murdered long before. The ground he travelled had been Conditioned through and through. At every turn, the probabilities had been summed, the possibilities averaged, the forks impossibly predetermined … Even here, standing before Shimeh, he executed but one operation in the skein of another’s godlike calculation. Even here, his every decision, his every act, confirmed the dread intent of the Thousandfold Thought.

Indeed, it is interesting to see Kellhus admit that he is not moving on his own.  In fact, I think this is the very reason why he kills Moe, because he realizes that he would never be actually self-moving as long as Moe is alive.

This does beg the interesting question of when does Kellhus step off this path?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 02:05:27 pm by H »
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2016, 05:02:01 pm »
This does beg the interesting question of when does Kellhus step off this path?

I'm thinking it's not until "I am more" that he truly steps off the path.

locke

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2016, 05:29:03 pm »
If the path was meant to provide a broken dunyain,  he didn't step off even then

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2016, 05:49:15 pm »
If the path was meant to provide a broken dunyain,  he didn't step off even then

True.  Which brings up an interesting question: who or what is driving TTT?  When Kellhus speaks of the ground being Conditioned, does he mean by Moenghus?  Or only that it's been Conditioned by someone or something?

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1932
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2016, 05:49:50 pm »
If the path was meant to provide a broken dunyain,  he didn't step off even then

It is possible that Moe always meant to have a Dunyain who both could deliver the Holy War and yet could not surpass him.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

locke

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2016, 06:55:43 am »

If the path was meant to provide a broken dunyain,  he didn't step off even then

True.  Which brings up an interesting question: who or what is driving TTT?  When Kellhus speaks of the ground being Conditioned, does he mean by Moenghus?  Or only that it's been Conditioned by someone or something?
i CONSTANTLY wonder at what the darkness that comes before the dunyain is?

What agency is conditioning the tract the dunyain walk?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1932
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2016, 12:06:48 pm »

If the path was meant to provide a broken dunyain,  he didn't step off even then

True.  Which brings up an interesting question: who or what is driving TTT?  When Kellhus speaks of the ground being Conditioned, does he mean by Moenghus?  Or only that it's been Conditioned by someone or something?
i CONSTANTLY wonder at what the darkness that comes before the dunyain is?

What agency is conditioning the tract the dunyain walk?

In my mind, it is whoever sent them to Ishual.  My money is on Seswatha really.

Chapter 14:

Quote
He stooped, pulled a twig from the straps of his right sandal. He studied it by moonlight, followed the thin, muscular branchings that seized so much emptiness from the sky. Tusk sprouting from tusk. Though the trees about him had died seasons previously, the twig possessed two leaves, one waxy green, the other brown …

Certainly an allusion to the twig from the prologue:

Quote
On the afternoon of the seventeenth day, a twig lodged itself between his sandal and his foot. He held it against storm-piled clouds and studied it, became lost in its shape, in the path it travelled through the open air—the thin, muscular branchings that seized so much emptiness from the sky. Had it simply fallen into this shape, or had it been cast, a mould drained of its wax? He looked up and saw one sky plied by the infinite forking of branches. Was there not one way to grasp one sky?

So, whereas before, Kellhus pondered all the branches, wondering which of them he should follow and lamenting how there was not just one way to grasp what needed to be grasped, now the path is clearer.  One path of life (the green leaf) and one of death (the brown leaf).  Kellhus is quick here to grasp it and discard  the twig, where before he spent an inordinate amount of time just thinking about it.  This is Kellhus becoming certain.

Quote
According to the Nonman King, not one in a hundred Inchoroi survived the Ark’s fall from the heavens, and yet a thousand thousand of them had warred against the Nonmen over the course of their innumerable wars.

So, there were 100 million Inchoroi in the Ark?  I can't say I am believing that...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 1701
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2016, 03:35:15 pm »
Chapter 13

Quote
We learned of this one through our interrogations of the others,” Maithanet said, his voice possessing a resonance that brushed aside the alarmed prattle. “It’s an accident, an anomaly that, thankfully, its architects have been unable to recreate.

This to me, is proof that this is a creation of Moe. When was the Thousand Temples ever shown to be interrogating skin-spies? Even, when we see Kellhus And Akka interrogating one, they are immune to torture. Now, we know giving more time Kellhus will have learned how to get them to break. And, again, Moe has had 30 years. Maybe Moe learned of through interrogations, but I do like the idea of Moe planting the thing called Simas. Either way, Moe sent Maithenet.

Sorry, falling a bit behind on the Slog. Been deadly sick here the past two days and haven't felt like doing much of anything.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2016, 03:36:04 pm »
Quote
According to the Nonman King, not one in a hundred Inchoroi survived the Ark’s fall from the heavens, and yet a thousand thousand of them had warred against the Nonmen over the course of their innumerable wars.

So, there were 100 million Inchoroi in the Ark?  I can't say I am believing that...

Certainly not if the measurements of the Ark in the Isuphiryas are to be believed. 

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1932
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2016, 04:29:15 pm »
Quote
According to the Nonman King, not one in a hundred Inchoroi survived the Ark’s fall from the heavens, and yet a thousand thousand of them had warred against the Nonmen over the course of their innumerable wars.

So, there were 100 million Inchoroi in the Ark?  I can't say I am believing that...

Certainly not if the measurements of the Ark in the Isuphiryas are to be believed. 

Yeah, I am more inclined to believe the measurements than the number of Inchoroi they thought they faced.

With the grafts, there could have been a much smaller, ever "evolving" group of Inchoroi which made it seem like vaster numbers.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2016, 04:37:30 pm »
This excerpt from the TUC glossary might help clear things up:

Quote
Nil'giccas (?-) - The Nonman King of Ishterebinth.  Serial exaggerator. 

geoffrobro

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 109
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2016, 04:52:16 pm »
Quote
According to the Nonman King, not one in a hundred Inchoroi survived the Ark’s fall from the heavens, and yet a thousand thousand of them had warred against the Nonmen over the course of their innumerable wars.

So, there were 100 million Inchoroi in the Ark?  I can't say I am believing that...

Certainly not if the measurements of the Ark in the Isuphiryas are to be believed. 

Yeah, I am more inclined to believe the measurements than the number of Inchoroi they thought they faced.

With the grafts, there could have been a much smaller, ever "evolving" group of Inchoroi which made it seem like vaster numbers.

I can somewhat believe the 100 million. Golgotterath is somewhat described as "low-tide" at the beach. when the tide drifts away and hundreds and hundreds of clams and mussels attach themselves to the pier or a sunken boats hull on its side. im picturing clams on clams on clams. im starting to think the Inchoroi are clams-heads with grafted bodies.   
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2016, 04:23:07 pm »
Interesting tidbit from chapter 14:

Quote
Vast was the night.  Great was the ground.
And yet they yielded.  They yielded.
Step-step-leap.  Incantations of space.  World crossing world.
The hares darted from his path.  The thrushes burst from his feet, hurtling into the starts.  The jackals raced at his side, their tongues lolling, their loping limbs tiring.
"Who are you?" they panted as their hearts failed them.
"Your master!" cried the godlike man as he outdistanced the.  And though humor was unknown to him he laughed.  He laughed until the sky shook.
Your master.

This passage describes Kellhus' journey to Kyudea.  What's interesting to me is it how it's written.  It has a distinctive, almost scriptural quality that might be unique in PON.  It seems unlikely that a tonal shift like this isn't intentional -- an editor would catch the inconsistency in a heartbeat.

Perhaps this is the moment when Kellhus steps off the path?  Or at least, the moment where he thinks he steps off the path?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 04:29:16 pm by profgrape »

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1932
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2016, 12:41:27 pm »
Interesting tidbit from chapter 14:

Quote
Vast was the night.  Great was the ground.
And yet they yielded.  They yielded.
Step-step-leap.  Incantations of space.  World crossing world.
The hares darted from his path.  The thrushes burst from his feet, hurtling into the starts.  The jackals raced at his side, their tongues lolling, their loping limbs tiring.
"Who are you?" they panted as their hearts failed them.
"Your master!" cried the godlike man as he outdistanced the.  And though humor was unknown to him he laughed.  He laughed until the sky shook.
Your master.

This passage describes Kellhus' journey to Kyudea.  What's interesting to me is it how it's written.  It has a distinctive, almost scriptural quality that might be unique in PON.  It seems unlikely that a tonal shift like this isn't intentional -- an editor would catch the inconsistency in a heartbeat.

Perhaps this is the moment when Kellhus steps off the path?  Or at least, the moment where he thinks he steps off the path?

While I didn't note it, I did notice that.  It certainly seems possible this is the time.

Chapter 15:

Quote
It stood at the edge of a greater hill near the heart of the debris fields, the twin of black Umiaki in girth and height.

I do wonder if Umiaki also marked the location of a Nonman mansion too...

Quote
Setmahaga fell first, struck in the eye by an absence affixed to the end of a stick. An explosion of burning salt …

So, the ciphrang actually salt.  I wonder if that supports the idea I had that they are actually damned sorcerers brought back...

Quote
He raised a cloth, pressed it into the pits of his eyes. When he withdrew it, two rose-coloured stains marked the pale fabric. The face slipped back into the impenetrable black.

I still don't understand this part, why the stains.  Had he really been sighted before and only blinded himself recently?

Quote
Screens of tumbling water, breaking the world beyond them into glittering lines and smeared shadows. Kellhus had ceased trying to penetrate them.

Why the water?  Moe certainly chose the spot to meet Kellhus on purpose.  Was it to distract him?

Quote
“You have not the power to overcome me.”
“But I do, Father.”
Another pause, imperceptibly longer.
“How,” his father finally said, “could you know this?”
“Because I know why you were compelled to summon me.”
Scrutiny. Calculation.
“So you have grasped it.”
“Yes … the Thousandfold Thought.”

Hmm, I go back and forth, pretty much every time I read this part.  Are they both lying to each other, or not.  Perhaps not, perhaps this is the point at which Moe realizes it's OK for Kellhus to take over TTT and go forth in his stead.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 01:26:12 pm »
Ch 15, Moenghus, regarding Kellhus' method of manipulation (bold mine):

Quote
You appealed to the spark of Logos within them.  You mapped the logic of their commitment, showed them the implications of the tenets they already held. You showed them beliefs fixed by truth rather than function ."

"Beliefs fixed by truth" reminds me a bit of Akka's discourse on Gnostic semantics. 

Quote
Screens of tumbling water, breaking the world beyond them into glittering lines and smeared shadows. Kellhus had ceased trying to penetrate them.

Why the water?  Moe certainly chose the spot to meet Kellhus on purpose.  Was it to distract him?

I suspect this was all about negating Kellhus' sensory advantages.  Moenghus is looking to own the Ground of their meeting.