The Slog TTT - Final March: Chapters 16 & 17 [Spoilers]

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« on: March 01, 2016, 12:54:40 pm »
Chapter 16:

Quote
“When did you realize you didn’t possess the strength,” Kellhus asked, “that more was needed to avert the No-God’s second coming?”
“From the very first I recognized that it was probable,” Moënghus said. “But I spent years assessing the possibilities, gathering knowledge. When the first of the Thought came to me, I was quite unprepared.”

Quote
“In this world,” Moënghus said, “there’s nothing more precious than our blood—as you have no doubt surmised. But the children we bear by worldborn women lack the breadth of our abilities. Maithanet is not Dûnyain. He could do no more than prepare the way.”

Indeed, I think here we learn something very important.  It isn't just the training that makes Kellhus what he is, they specifically bred the Anisurimbor blood.  The Nonman blood.  This is why Kellhus is more.

Quote
“You speak as though the Thought were a living thing.”
He could see nothing in the eyeless face.
“Because it is.” Moënghus stepped between the two hanging skin-spies. Though blind, he unerringly reached out to run a finger down one of the many hanging chains. “Have you heard of a game played in southern Nilnamesh, a game called viramsata, or ‘many-breaths’?”

This is the lesson.  This is the whole purpose of the encounter.  Kellhus learns that he makes the lies true.  Is is the living lie, the new lie to overtake Moe.

Quote
Let him think I waver.

This is where the honesty ends.  Before this, I think the Kellhus is proving to Moe that he really has grasped TTT.  After this he plays at attempting to deceive Moe.

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“Set aside your conviction,” Moënghus said, “for the feeling of certainty is no more a marker of truth than the feeling of will is a marker of freedom. Deceived men always think themselves certain, just as they always think themselves free. This is simply what it means to be deceived.”
Kellhus looked to the haloes about his hands, wondered that they could be light and yet cast no light, throw no shadow … The light of delusion.

Again, Kellhus learning that he is living a lie, but that it doesn't matter.  It's a lie, but a lie he will make true.

Quote
For the Dûnyain, it was axiomatic: what was compliant had to be isolated from what was unruly and intractable. Kellhus had seen it many times, wandering the labyrinth of possibilities that was the Thousandfold Thought: The Warrior-Prophet’s assassination. The rise of Anasûrimbor Moënghus to take his place. The apocalyptic conspiracies. The counterfeit war against Golgotterath. The accumulation of premeditated disasters. The sacrifice of whole nations to the gluttony of the Sranc. The Three Seas crashing into char and ruin.
The Gods baying like wolves at a silent gate.
Perhaps his father had yet to apprehend this. Perhaps he simply couldn’t see past the arrival of his son. Or perhaps all this—the accusations of madness, the concern over his unanticipated turn—was simply a ruse. Either way, it was irrelevant.

This part is very interesting for the future implications, because it's a theory floated often as to what Kellhus is really after in The Aspect Emperor.  Here, he imagines what he cannot allow to happen, what a Dunyain would do, the implication being, of course, what he won't do.  Or is it?  Is it rather that he won't allow Moe to exact this.

The latter part seems to speak more to the truth.  Kellhus even admits at the very beginning of this encounter that he knows he walks on Conditioned ground.  Yet, now he doubts Moe could have considered the possibility of his father having anticipated all this?

I find only one way to reconcile all this, in my mind.  It is that the entirety of the encounter is premeditated by Moe simply to remove any doubt from Kellhus.  Kellhus muses how he has "labyrinth of possibilities that was the Thousandfold Thought" and I think Moe would have known this.  What he does now, in allowing Kellhus to seemingly master the situation is lock in the path of this new Thousandfold Thought.

Cycling back around, this is the whole purpose of the Holy War, the whole purpose of it all, to train up Kellhus to be the new Thousandfold Thought, to take it where Moe was simply unable to.

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Serwë assailed him first, her limbs and blade a whirring blur. But he stopped her with blue-flashing hands, swatted aside her slender figure …
Just as her brother descended, slashing at impossible palms, spinning and kicking, lunging and probing—only to be seized about the throat, to gape and thrash as the blind man lifted him off his feet, to blister and burn as blue light consumed his head, made a candle of his body. The thing’s face cramped open and the blind man threw him slack to the ground.

Consider how easily, even having been stabbed, he dispatches the skin-spies.  Yet, we're to believe he couldn't do a thing to prevent Kellhus stabbing him?

Quote
I am dying, Nayu.” Hot whispers in his ear. “I need your strength …

And what might be the most cryptic quote in the whole series.

He needs his strength for what?  If it isn't for a soul transfer, then for what?  Could he have foreseen their arrival?  Or did Moe have something else planned, but took the opportunity when it presented itself?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2016, 09:03:31 pm »
kellhus kills as many skin spies in the dark with a sword as Moe does with magic.

The stab also confuses me though, no wards from Moe.

locke

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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2016, 07:27:10 am »
Kellhus teleported the knife into moe he didn't stab him.

"The rise of anasurimbor moenghus to take his place"

If kellhus was thwarted when he attempted to teleport out of moenghus' inversion of ground, as I've speculated before, then the truth of this quote becomes more apparent, remember, they are described as exactly identical in this chapter, save one is shaved and one is not, it should be a paltry thing for moenghus to take the place of kellhus as we see from the appearance of a figure match in the description of kellhus in the shimeh battle and in the aspect emperor series, crucially, kellhus povs are absent from all moments past his teleportation, possibly confirming this theory.

Given that everything in the context of the quote except "the rise of anasurimbor moenghus to take his place" has been shown to be apparently correct, we must also consider the possibility that this single line is co equally correct with all the other correct predictions it is entwined within.


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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2016, 11:31:20 am »
Kellhus teleported the knife into moe he didn't stab him.

"The rise of anasurimbor moenghus to take his place"

If kellhus was thwarted when he attempted to teleport out of moenghus' inversion of ground, as I've speculated before, then the truth of this quote becomes more apparent, remember, they are described as exactly identical in this chapter, save one is shaved and one is not, it should be a paltry thing for moenghus to take the place of kellhus as we see from the appearance of a figure match in the description of kellhus in the shimeh battle and in the aspect emperor series, crucially, kellhus povs are absent from all moments past his teleportation, possibly confirming this theory.

Given that everything in the context of the quote except "the rise of anasurimbor moenghus to take his place" has been shown to be apparently correct, we must also consider the possibility that this single line is co equally correct with all the other correct predictions it is entwined within.

Too deep Locke, too deep for my blood.  I don't think I can follow that all the way down, although it is pretty interesting to think about, because you are right, seemingly everything that was "prophesized" there seems to have come true.  There is the alternative though, that this is exactly  what Scott wants us to think, that this is what Kellhus is after, setting us up for a surprise at the end...

Chapter 17:

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“Because I couldn’t succeed,” Achamian said. “Not alone. Because what we do here is more important than truth or love.”

Quote
No … this can’t be …
The No-God advanced across the Mengedda Plain, sweeping up legions of Sranc, tossing them about its thunderhead base like dolls knitted of cheap flesh. And in its winding heart Seswatha glimpsed it, the glint of the Carapace, hanging like a black jewel … He turned back to the Kyranean High King.
WHAT AM I?
“What am I?” the dark and regal face said, frowning. His oiled braids thrashed like snakes about his shoulders. The last of the light glimmered across the lions wrought into his bronze armour.
“The World, Anaxophus! The very World!
This isn’t how it happens!

Consider the previous dream though.  Seswatha admitting he lied because the mission was greater than the truth.  And here, a dream presented different.  A lie Akka needed to hear?  Is this Seswatha telling Akka that Kellhus sides with the No-God?  I admit that often, before, I took the changed dreams as the truth.  Some may be, but here, coupled with the previous dream, perhaps not?

Quote
Kellhus nodded to him, his frown amiable and perplexed. “This is what I decree, Akka. The old world is dead.”
Leaning against his staff, Achamian glanced across the astonished assembly. “So you speak,” he said without urgency or rancour, “of an apocalypse.”
“It’s not so simple. You know that …” His voice, his expression—everything about him—beamed indulgent good humour. He raised a welcoming hand, gestured to the space to his right. “Come … take your place at my side.”

Hmm, this is interesting, possibly Kellhus admiting that the Second Apocalypse is what he is trying to bring?  A semantic one though?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Bolivar

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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2016, 06:42:07 pm »
^ I always wonder why the Second Apocalypse should be anything like the first one. And how can the whole series be called such if it's only going to kick off in the final 2-3 books? I know the Prince of Nothing was originally planned to explain what happened leading up to it. But I think the Second Apocalypsd could be initiated by the Dunyain rather than the Consult, hence why the Darkness prologue sets them up as the danger that has been forgotten and the Three Seas cannot build walls against.

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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2016, 12:09:20 pm »
^ I always wonder why the Second Apocalypse should be anything like the first one. And how can the whole series be called such if it's only going to kick off in the final 2-3 books? I know the Prince of Nothing was originally planned to explain what happened leading up to it. But I think the Second Apocalypsd could be initiated by the Dunyain rather than the Consult, hence why the Darkness prologue sets them up as the danger that has been forgotten and the Three Seas cannot build walls against.

That is a pretty good point.  Not being "able to build walls against secrets" is certainly an interesting line.  The implication is certainly that Ishuäl is a secret from the No-God.  Yet, that part of the prologue ends with "And the world forgot them for two thousand years."  If we think of it in a loop as you say, you get:

"And the world forgot them for two thousand years.
One cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten."

Interesting because, of course, the world was unprepared for Kellhus coming.

EDIT: Just realized they make even more sense together in order, "One cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten And the world forgot them for two thousand years."
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 03:57:55 pm by H »
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2016, 03:42:47 pm »
Kellhus must have teleported the knife into and out of Moe, which would make spending time to appraise reflexes a redundant action, which is what Kellhus does.

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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2016, 03:58:37 pm »
Kellhus must have teleported the knife into and out of Moe, which would make spending time to appraise reflexes a redundant action, which is what Kellhus does.

But why not have a Ward ready?  It's not as if Kellhus could tell, because it'd be Psuhke.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2016, 04:30:20 pm »
Kellhus must have teleported the knife into and out of Moe, which would make spending time to appraise reflexes a redundant action, which is what Kellhus does.

But why not have a Ward ready?  It's not as if Kellhus could tell, because it'd be Psuhke.

H., I believe he wanted to be "killed" by Kellhus. The asps bit I quoted leads to the assumption that Moe had his eyes there the whole time. In fact, as soon as he is stabbed they come to him. Kyudea, Cnaüir (passion and remember that is what makes Water. Meppa is said to have a ocean of Water), the chorae, Moe burning and not going up into a dash of incandescence, all leads me to the idea that Moe had a plan. That plan more than likely, imho, resulted In Meppa.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 04:35:06 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2016, 11:47:50 pm »
Cnaiur doesn't cut his own throat, at least not that we see. Just before serwe touches him, the light flickers pit, and then he's plugged into absolute darkness.

I like the thought that at this scene is Moe confirming that kellhus has grasped TTT and then sacrifices himself. Maybe he does see that he would side with the consult and prevents that outcome thus. He already acknowledged that he couldn't save the world the the consult alone.


Also, making lies the new ground is very important. It doesn't matter is kellhus is mad, or a false phrophet, or not the harbinger, or the savior. What matters is that he made others belive, and then so became. Because the wold is meaningful, ie that beliefs write the world, that the world has no objective truths, makes this distinction extremely important.

Kellhus will save the world, so long as people believe he will, potentially even regardless of what he wants to do. "From what darkness do these thoughts come" - they come noto from within, but from the world, from the beliefs of others, physically forcing him to think and feel in ways contrary to what he wants.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2016, 10:31:04 am »
Also, making lies the new ground is very important. It doesn't matter is kellhus is mad, or a false prophet, or not the harbinger, or the savior. What matters is that he made others believe, and then so became. Because the wold is meaningful, ie that beliefs write the world, that the world has no objective truths, makes this distinction extremely important.

Kellhus will save the world, so long as people believe he will, potentially even regardless of what he wants to do. "From what darkness do these thoughts come" - they come noto from within, but from the world, from the beliefs of others, physically forcing him to think and feel in ways contrary to what he wants.

I think it could even be deeper, in the sense that it doesn't matter if Kellhus is mad or not, it only matter if he truly believes it.  If he really believes, then he will make it the truth.  And made truth, others will believe as well.  That is TTT, what Moe has been leading Kellhus too the whole time.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2016, 06:13:57 pm »
Also, making lies the new ground is very important. It doesn't matter is kellhus is mad, or a false phrophet, or not the harbinger, or the savior. What matters is that he made others belive, and then so became. Because the wold is meaningful, ie that beliefs write the world, that the world has no objective truths, makes this distinction extremely important.

Kellhus will save the world, so long as people believe he will, potentially even regardless of what he wants to do. "From what darkness do these thoughts come" - they come noto from within, but from the world, from the beliefs of others, physically forcing him to think and feel in ways contrary to what he wants.

I disagree, for years ,on westeros, folk postulated that local beliefs could effect reality, in the Q&A Bakker did with pat fantasy hotlist it was framed in the context of damnation. We were told there is a right way to believe and folk are damned.

Now i'm assuming being Damned and being Kellhus are essentially two sides of the same coin here, so if you can't change one by belief you can't change the other. 

The great thing is we're both probably wrong and it'll be something better! :)

Wilshire

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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2016, 11:05:53 pm »
I don't see the distinction.

People may be damned because they either believe themselves damned, or others believe them damned. This doesn't at all contradict what bakker said. The flip side is that those who belive themselves saved, or believe others are saved, are in turn saved.

Just because there is a way of belief that makes you either damned or not damned, does not mean that this is a set path. The belief that governs that system can be fluid. Ie, since the Inrithi won the war, their belief system is now right. If the fanim won, they would be right. If Moe won, he'd be right. Since kellhus won and concerted everyone to his system of beliefs, he is right.

Nothing in there contradicts what bakker said, and, in fact, it's and clever way for him to answer, by hiding the truth with partial truths. How very much like Anasurimbor friends.

I'm not privy to the discussionsame elsewhere, as I am an s-a loyalist.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

themerchant

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« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2016, 07:20:00 am »
I see the laws of damnation as immutable. there is no causal relationship between what people on Earwa think and Damnation. Considering the Inchies probably discovered Damnation millions of years before a human thought existed on Earwa, if we assume a relativistic universe. We know the Inchies "sailed" into the space around Earwa so that the Horde General could see Earwa as a wee dot in the distance.

"Damnation is not local. There is a right and wrong way to believe in Eärwa, which means that entire nations will be damned"

Inrithi winning a war changing damnation rules seems local to me. Also what is the tipping point? Once a king falls?When less than 144,000 believe something else? Also I don't think Kellhus "concerted everything" , Zeum exists and isn't Inrithi. Fanimry still exists and has done since it's inception. Their leader is a renegade but they even have a priest.

You might be right about the mechanism, but Inrithi lands are about to be taken over by Fanim and Zeum, will that change the laws again?

H

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« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2016, 10:28:46 am »
Quote
Damnation is not local. There is a right and wrong way to believe in Eärwa, which means that entire nations will be damned. Since the question of just who will be saved and who will be damned is a cornerstone of The Aspect-Emperor’s plot, there’s not much more that I can say.

I've never viewed that quote as proof that there is only one right way to believe in Earwa.  The question asked if someone is damned somewhere, does traveling other places mean they won't be, or vice versa.  The answer is, of course, no, this is why the Inchoroi have the problem they do.  Damnation is essentially a status that marks you.  Once marked, it won't just disappear by traveling around, even to places where what you did to be damned is OK.  You are already marked.

I still believe that belief can change the Outside though, that the beliefs on the Inside foster the gods on the Outside.  This quote really doesn't tell us anything about that.  Just the fact that people could be wrong doesn't mean that belief doesn't work.  If you conned people on Earwa to worship a fake god, where none was, I could see how your belief goes right to waste, probably fostering damnation by angering other gods with your impiety.  It takes something big, someone very strong, and probably some special cercumstances, like with Fane, who could "create" a god.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira