Dreams

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Blackstone

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« on: March 01, 2016, 03:52:07 pm »
If this has been brought up before, I apologize. I've been gearing up for the release of the GO and rereading (and re-listening) to all the books. I saw in another thread, and I'm sorry I don't remember who originally said it, that maybe Seswatha is censoring the dreams the Mandate have. I think this seems really likely. Akka, having been away from the "shriveled pouch of Seswatha's heart" for twenty years, is having different dreams than the rest of the Mandate. I think having time/distance/direction between himself and Atyersus has broken censoring aspect of whatever magic fuels the dreams. Perhaps this is also why he has dreams about Nau-Cayuti also. With that extra space comes the ability to dream as people who were dear to Seswatha. I'm not speculating that NC was Seswatha's kid (though it's possible) only that they were close enough that there was an attachment.

Also, how does Kellhus experience the dreams or does he. He never grasped the heart. He did some sort of meditation thing with Akka during the Holy War. Does this prevent him from having the dreams? If not, I wonder how a Dunyain would experience them.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2016, 04:07:04 pm »
Serwa experiences the dreams, so half-dunyain is as close as we get.

Kellhus is the only contemporary sorcerer  that wields the gnosis that doesn't dream the dreams. There must have been some use to shackle the Swayali to Seswatha.

If this has been brought up before, I apologize
Don't do that. Its been half a decade. Its probably been a long time since truly new ground has been covered, and we've accumulated, and subsequently forgotten, most things, so don't worry about  it.

I've been gearing up for the release of the GO and rereading (and re-listening) to all the books.
We are doing a forum re-read, lovingly called The Slog of Slogs. its nearing the end of TTT currently, you should check out the Almanac subforum and add your thoughts to those threads as you read.


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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2016, 05:49:04 pm »
If this has been brought up before, I apologize
Don't do that. Its been half a decade. Its probably been a long time since truly new ground has been covered, and we've accumulated, and subsequently forgotten, most things, so don't worry about  it.

Yeah, chances are really good that I have no original ideas of my own, but just recycled memories of theories other people came up with years and years ago that I don't consciously recall.  Such is our fate with no new content to scrutinize.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Madness

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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2016, 06:41:32 pm »
Lol - just wait til you pull a me (or I annoyingly quote you) and you see your own writing from a decade ago and not only do you disagree with your reasoning then, you find yourself annoying.

But I think that's just growing up ;).

EDIT: Also, Blackstone, one of a number of other threads on the Dreams: Investigating Achamian's Dreams.
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2016, 06:44:08 pm »
Lol - just wait til you pull a me (or I annoyingly quote you) and you see your own writing from a decade ago and not only do you disagree with your reasoning then, you find yourself annoying.

But I think that's just growing up ;).

That's definitely me reading anything I wrote on ZTS.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2016, 01:18:38 am »
Yeah just a little while ago i thought i was reading an entirely novel thread till i got to the end and saw i had posted in it 6 months before, i read any and all speculation multiple times and sometimes remember it for longer than 6 months.

Let alone the 5 years quoted above :)

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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2016, 12:30:05 pm »
So, I speculated on it in the Slog thread, but I have a feeling that one thing that has perpetually thrown me off about the Dreams is thinking they are either true or false within themselves.  As in, the "normal dreams" are true and Akka's "changed dreams" are false.  Or, the "normal dreams" false and Akka's are true.

In reality, it could most certainly be that all the dreams are false.  They are all propaganda, viramsata.  The lies in the "normal dreams" are to keep the Mandate on the straight and narrow, while the lies given to Akka are to guide him on his "mission" (whatever that is).

I do think that there is some truth interspersed in there too, just to make it that much more unclear as to if we are to believe them wholesale, or not.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Bolivar

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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2016, 05:56:23 pm »
I'm partial to the insanity hypothesis as described by Cnaiur in TTT, that the Outside seeps in when the hardships and burdens of the world become too much for the soul to bear. Whether this phenomenon is genuine or simply the delusions of mad men and women will end up being the ultimate mystery of the series. Applied to Achamian, everything he went through during the Holy War has warped his dreams into something beyond the canon of Mandate nightmares. You could say his cynical weariness of the world was the beginnings of this, as the dreams were already starting to become different when we first meet Akka:

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  He turned from the view to the room’s single table and dropped onto the stool, or what passed for one—it looked like something salvaged from a wrecked ship. He wet his quill and unrolling a small scroll across scattered sheets of parchment, wrote:

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Fords of Tywanrae. Same.
Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and not S in mirror.

  A curious discrepancy. What could it mean? For a moment, he pondered the sour futility of the question. Then he remembered awakening in the heart of night. After a pause, he added:
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Death and Prophecy of Anasűrimbor Celmomas. Same.

  But was it the same? In detail, certainly, but there had been a disturbing immediacy to the dream—enough to wake him. After scratching out “Same,”he wrote:
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Different. More powerful.

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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2016, 08:02:12 pm »
I'm partial to the insanity hypothesis as described by Cnaiur in TTT, that the Outside seeps in when the hardships and burdens of the world become too much for the soul to bear. Whether this phenomenon is genuine or simply the delusions of mad men and women will end up being the ultimate mystery of the series. Applied to Achamian, everything he went through during the Holy War has warped his dreams into something beyond the canon of Mandate nightmares. You could say his cynical weariness of the world was the beginnings of this, as the dreams were already starting to become different when we first meet Akka:

Even if Cnaiur is right (which we unfortunately don't know) it still begs the question of whether or not the Dreams are products of the dreamer, or if Seswatha (or some other outside force) controls them?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2016, 05:16:46 am »
@ Blackstone - Now that you mention it, I just assumed that Kellhus never went through the Heart Ritual, but I guess he could have?  I'm intrigued by the idea that distance from Atyersus would disconnect Akka.  I'm not sure that that works since the Mandate used to keep a mission in Atrithau. 

If Kellhus did dream the dreams, he might not let on the way others do.  It strikes me now that the Heart is a convenient way to keep any long term project focused.  Maybe the Pragma have a secret Heart Ritual to keep the Dunyain project moving forward?

Also, I like the audiobooks too Blackstone!  Sooner or later, I'm going to have an interview with both of the readers! :)

@ themerchant - cute dog!

@ Bolivar - Reading what you wrote--isn't there some part about dreams being a conduit between the World and the Outside?  If that is the case, I guess Seswatha could be broadcasting from a heaven or hell?  I hadn't thought of it that way before--I kind of thought of Seswatha as "in" the heart and "in" the Mandati.  But maybe it's more like the Heart is a key that opens a special channel in each Mandati that allows for special and exclusive contact from just one agent in the Outside, Seswatha.

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« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2016, 10:43:38 am »
I guess it is possible that Kellhus went back later and grasped the Heart, but I very much doubt it.  His plan was always to be outside the control of the Seswatha avatar, or whatever it is.

Which is another point, we never hear of Seswatha dying.  Not even a passing mention.  I, for one, don't think he is actually dead, in the sense of gone completely to the Outside.  I think whatever the heart is (if it's really his own heart, or not) it somehow was imbued with his soul, or a way to allow him to communicate to those who touched it.  I doubt if he is still alive and walking around, but I have a feeling that there is something unique about his "death" if we can even call it that.

I'm also still buying that Attrempus has some role to play.  It makes no sense to go through the trouble of making a fortress just to not bother using it.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2016, 11:51:57 am »
Yeah Dunyains don't like getting unsolicited dreams.