The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]

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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2016, 10:38:59 am »
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I have built a place … a refuge …” Anasûrimbor Celmomas said. “A place where my line can outlive me. Ishual....

So, I've always speculated that Ishual was a Nonmen mansion that Celmommas found and made into a refuge. What if Celmommas worked with the Nonmen to build this place, unbeknownst to Seswatha?

I, opf course, agree about the Nonman origins of Ishual.  I still don't think that Celmomas could have anythng to do with it's actually building though.  It would have taken years upon years to cut the Thousand-Thousand Halls out, no way it was made in the short time between Seswatha warning Celmomas and him deciding to heed it.  I just can't buy that.

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The truth of men lay in their origins. He knew this as only a Mandate Schoolman could. Anasûrimbor Kellhus had not come to the Three Seas by accident. He had not found his half-brother waiting for him as Shriah of the Thousand Temples by accident. He had not conquered the known world by accident.

Just more proof, to me, that the Dunyain are part of something more. Its more than just Moe, there was a plan and Kellhus is the culmination of the plan. If anything, this reread has reinforced my belief that Seswatha is behind the Dunyain.

Yeah, I've been thinking that way fora good while now too.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2016, 04:42:13 pm »
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I, opf course, agree about the Nonman origins of Ishual.  I still don't think that Celmomas could have anythng to do with it's actually building though.  It would have taken years upon years to cut the Thousand-Thousand Halls out, no way it was made in the short time between Seswatha warning Celmomas and him deciding to heed it.  I just can't buy that.

That's a great point. But, what if the Thousand Thousand Halls is the old Nonman mansion? And, the fortification on top is what Celmommas built? That would make sense, no?

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Yeah, I've been thinking that way fora good while now too.

Yea, and Bakker said that this story isa metaphysical "who done it" that we won't necessarily get the answer to, specifically. I think the answer is Seswatha.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 04:45:51 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2016, 04:46:17 pm »
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I, opf course, agree about the Nonman origins of Ishual.  I still don't think that Celmomas could have anythng to do with it's actually building though.  It would have taken years upon years to cut the Thousand-Thousand Halls out, no way it was made in the short time between Seswatha warning Celmomas and him deciding to heed it.  I just can't buy that.

That's a great point. But, what if the Thousand Thousand Halls is the old Nonman mansion? And, the fortification on top is what Celmommas built? That would make sense, no?

In theory, yes and I actually pondered that as I was writing my response.  What makes me doubt that though is that the walls were covered in "sorcerous runes."  Who would have carved them for Celmomas?  I guess it could have been Nonmen helping him build it, but I'm still thinking its more probable that the place was already there and simply forgotten, as Nonmen are wont to do...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2016, 04:50:16 pm »
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In theory, yes and I actually pondered that as I was writing my response.  What makes me doubt that though is that the walls were covered in "sorcerous runes."  Who would have carved them for Celmomas?  I guess it could have been Nonmen helping him build it, but I'm still thinking its more probable that the place was already there and simply forgotten, as Nonmen are wont to do...

A great idea just struck me, what if those runes are Apropos? That would make sense as to why it was abandoned. Nonmen outlaw aporetic sorcery and Ishual is forgotten.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 04:56:16 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2016, 05:05:25 pm »
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In theory, yes and I actually pondered that as I was writing my response.  What makes me doubt that though is that the walls were covered in "sorcerous runes."  Who would have carved them for Celmomas?  I guess it could have been Nonmen helping him build it, but I'm still thinking its more probable that the place was already there and simply forgotten, as Nonmen are wont to do...

I great idea just struck me, what if those runes are Apropos? That would make sense as to why it was abandoned. Nonmen outlaw aporetic sorcery and Ishual is forgotten.

I had thought about this as well, that perhaps the runes were a part of what was to keep it hidden.  Thing is, if it was Aporetic, would it be seen (felt) like a Chorae?  Then again, we know so little of the Aporos, perhaps not.

You could be right though, that it was a Aporetic fortress, left abandoned when they were outlawed as well.  I think someone proposed that it was outlaw Nonmen before too.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2016, 05:28:58 pm »
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You could be right though, that it was a Aporetic fortress, left abandoned when they were outlawed as well.  I think someone proposed that it was outlaw Nonmen before too.

Hah, yea there isn't much that one can think up that is original.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2016, 05:51:22 pm »
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You could be right though, that it was a Aporetic fortress, left abandoned when they were outlawed as well.  I think someone proposed that it was outlaw Nonmen before too.

Hah, yea there isn't much that one can think up that is original.

Yeah, you have to go pretty far afield to get where no one has ever gone.

Chances are that is where the real answers would be though...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2016, 03:36:22 pm »
I'm on board with Ishual at least partly being of Nonman manufacture. From Kellhus' first time in a mansion:

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The halls were not human.
 The drafts came to him, murmuring their secrets. His soul reached out, calculating probabilities, transforming inferences into space. About him, the galleries scrawled on and on into the immured blackness.
 So like the Thousand Thousand Halls … So like Ishuäl.

I had forgotten how sharp Sarl was. I like the theory of him being the Traveler or a Dunyain but I take it he's being honest after he goes mad. Still, it's strange that he would be so old, not a veteran of the first holy war, yet fight at Kosoter's side throughout the Unification. What was he doing before Kellhus' ascendancy?

I also found it strange that the Empire had "replaced" one of the priestesses with a Swayali. They have their own arcane version of skin spies now?

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« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2016, 03:14:19 pm »
I'm on board with Ishual at least partly being of Nonman manufacture. From Kellhus' first time in a mansion:

Quote
The halls were not human.
 The drafts came to him, murmuring their secrets. His soul reached out, calculating probabilities, transforming inferences into space. About him, the galleries scrawled on and on into the immured blackness.
 So like the Thousand Thousand Halls … So like Ishuäl.

I also found it strange that the Empire had "replaced" one of the priestesses with a Swayali. They have their own arcane version of skin spies now?

The text openly insinuates that Ishual is of Nonman origin: its name is derived from Ihrimsu, a Nonman languge, and Bolivar has quoted the scene where Kellhus openly remarks on the similarities between a mansion and the Thousand Thousand Halls. At some point we heard about Nonmen hiding in Cil'Aujas after it was claimed by men; would it be so remarkable for the Dunyain to do the same? At the end of TWLW, Achamian and Mimara come across the ruined fortress, but many times now we've seen it stated that the most important structure in Ishual is beneath its surface. (To speculate on the possible new angles that this might raise)

As far as the Empire replacing a priestess with a Swayali, I think it's more to highlight the convenience a sorceress might have while infiltrating a matriarchal cult. Though it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Kellhus has expanded greatly upon Moe's research.

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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2016, 05:11:55 pm »
I think that what's so important about Ishual being of Nonman origin is how much Nonman blood Kellhus actually has. Someone at Westeros (HelloWorld, I believe), suggested that Celmommas had a secret pact with the Nonmen (Nil'giccas in particular). I frowned upon the idea at first, now i can see it as a real possibility. I don't think that Kellhus would have much Nonman blood if all that he had was from a ancestor 2000 years ago. So it seems to point that the Dunyain are getting Nonman traits from somewhere. Maybe a Nonman matriarch?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2016, 05:58:37 pm »
I think that what's so important about Ishual being of Nonman origin is how much Nonman blood Kellhus actually has. Someone at Westeros (HelloWorld, I believe), suggested that Celmommas had a secret pact with the Nonmen (Nil'giccas in particular). I frowned upon the idea at first, now i can see it as a real possibility. I don't think that Kellhus would have much Nonman blood if all that he had was from a ancestor 2000 years ago. So it seems to point that the Dunyain are getting Nonman traits from somewhere. Maybe a Nonman matriarch?
One idea I like is that the goal of the Dunyain breeding program is to reverse engineer the Cunoroi genome. They are clearly becoming a new species, as they have reached the point where their mates are having problems bringing pregnancy to term.

At Dagliash, Seswatha insists (via Nautzera in TTT) "there must be some other way," for Mekeritrig to cope with his Erraticism. Why not the prospect of wives and children? It would also explain how Seswatha escaped Dagliash, if he was freed in exchange for the location at Ishual and an alternative for the Nonmen. It would also explain where all the Dunyain women are.

Kind of an out there theory and I'm sure it will be among the first debunked in The Great Ordeal

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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2016, 06:17:04 pm »
I think that what's so important about Ishual being of Nonman origin is how much Nonman blood Kellhus actually has. Someone at Westeros (HelloWorld, I believe), suggested that Celmommas had a secret pact with the Nonmen (Nil'giccas in particular). I frowned upon the idea at first, now i can see it as a real possibility. I don't think that Kellhus would have much Nonman blood if all that he had was from a ancestor 2000 years ago. So it seems to point that the Dunyain are getting Nonman traits from somewhere. Maybe a Nonman matriarch?
One idea I like is that the goal of the Dunyain breeding program is to reverse engineer the Cunoroi genome. They are clearly becoming a new species, as they have reached the point where their mates are having problems bringing pregnancy to term.

At Dagliash, Seswatha insists (via Nautzera in TTT) "there must be some other way," for Mekeritrig to cope with his Erraticism. Why not the prospect of wives and children? It would also explain how Seswatha escaped Dagliash, if he was freed in exchange for the location at Ishual and an alternative for the Nonmen. It would also explain where all the Dunyain women are.

Well, I've said before that the Dunyain probably thought they were breeding toward the maximum human potential.  In reality, they were breeding Human-Nonman hybrids.  This is why their abilities are so far beyond human and yet not subject to the limits of the Nonman flaws as well.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2016, 06:06:33 pm »
I'm confused as to why everyone is questioning where Kelmomas's "voice" is coming from. I admit, mine is a skeptical heart, but when Kel kills Samarmas, the voice says "why did you wait so long..." to kill me. The voice, to me, is obviously Samarmas's intellect, which was trapped in Kel's head when their souls were sundered by the healer slave.

Did anyone else find it interesting that the Swayali who Pstama "unmasked" in the temple was an anagogic witch and not gnostic?
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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2016, 06:09:58 pm »
I'm confused as to why everyone is questioning where Kelmomas's "voice" is coming from. I admit, mine is a skeptical heart, but when Kel kills Samarmas, the voice says "why did you wait so long..." to kill me. The voice, to me, is obviously Samarmas's intellect, which was trapped in Kel's head when their souls were sundered by the healer slave.

Did anyone else find it interesting that the Swayali who Pstama "unmasked" in the temple was an anagogic witch and not gnostic?


Well if it's Ajokli, like I believe, he is the trickster. Like playing g tricks, and tricking Kel into thinking it's Sammy.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2016, 06:33:12 pm »
I'm confused as to why everyone is questioning where Kelmomas's "voice" is coming from. I admit, mine is a skeptical heart, but when Kel kills Samarmas, the voice says "why did you wait so long..." to kill me. The voice, to me, is obviously Samarmas's intellect, which was trapped in Kel's head when their souls were sundered by the healer slave.

Did anyone else find it interesting that the Swayali who Pstama "unmasked" in the temple was an anagogic witch and not gnostic?


Well if it's Ajokli, like I believe, he is the trickster. Like playing g tricks, and tricking Kel into thinking it's Sammy.

If that's the case, and it's not Samarmas's intellect, why did Kel's identical twin turn out to be an idiot?
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.